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View Diary: Michael Moore Speaks (157 comments)

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  •  not really. (3+ / 0-)
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    lmenshevik, SoCalHobbit, wolfie1818

    Fallacy of line drawing:

    A concept is dismissed as unclear, meaningless, or inapplicable because of the inability draw a line to demarcate the edge of the concept.  


    the "line" as used in my post is not for demarcation (as in the fallacy definition), but rather to connect premise and conclusion.

    moore's conclusion is that capitalism should be replaced by democracy.  he has plenty of emotionally powerful anecdotes (the evidence) but is fails in composing logical inferences that lead us to his claim.  the result is a poorly constructed argument.  

    •  He isn't replacing (15+ / 0-)

      capitalism with democracy. He's infusing capitalism with democracy.

      Not sure it's possible, or advisable, to replace an economic system with a political system. But you can mitigate an economic system with a political system.

      ...and oh boy could capitalism use some mitigatin'.

      Free University and Health Care for all, now. -8.88, -7.13

      by SoCalHobbit on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 03:44:36 PM PDT

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      •  Capitalism is about the allocation of (6+ / 0-)

        assets and resources for current and future use.  Democracy is about who does the allocating--all of the people, rather than one (monarch) or a few (oligarchs).

        Political economy is the manipulation of trade and exchange by a few to control the behavior of the majority.  It involves a strategy of limiting and restricting access to the resources humans need to survive and then doling them out as rewards for behavior that satisfies demands.

        In other words, survival depends on subservience.

        by hannah on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:49:05 PM PDT

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      •  I'm a little confused... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SoCalHobbit, wolfie1818

        The opposite of capitalism is...?
        The opposite of democracy is...?

        I think a lot of people would answer "socialism" to at least one of those questions, but I suspect that it is not the correct answer to either.

        Any help?

        •  you have to start by asking what is capitalism... (1+ / 0-)
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          which moore doesn't do in his film.

          he doesn't address what socialism is, either.

          •  what is democracy? and how is it different (1+ / 0-)
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            from what we have currently?

            •  Hmmm (0+ / 0-)

              Democracy - One person, one vote.

              Capitalism - The golden rule.

              Free University and Health Care for all, now. -8.88, -7.13

              by SoCalHobbit on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 09:01:10 PM PDT

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              •  but America is based on more than just (1+ / 0-)
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                the ideal of one person, one vote, isn't it?

                what about property rights?  social contract?  the relationship between the individual and the state?  the common good?  natural laws and positive laws?  the relationship between States?  we very quickly begin to see that even the ideas from the thinkers of the Enlightenment from which derived America were far too limited in today's world.

                how is our understanding of economics, of costs and limited resources, too parochial?  how can we justify the availability and consumption of 99 cent hamburgers or cheap "throwaway" tshirts?  why do we distinguish between man and his environments or ecosystem as if it exists separate from us?  what ought to be the role of government, if at all, in the relationship between labor and management/business?  

    •  He isn't making an argument. He is an artist. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aliasalias, wmholt

      He is invoking a mood.

      Watch the moments of your day, and you'll see that our lives are composed of a sequence of moods, and moreover, that mood leads to particular thoughts and actions.

      Until we break the corporate virtual monopoly on what we hear and see, we keep losing, don't matter what we do.

      by Jim P on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:48:51 PM PDT

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    •  Capital+Democracy = Democratic Social Capitalism (5+ / 0-)

      Why not?

      OR, more simply:  DEMOCRACY>Capitalism

      And, IMO, if we are to have a healthy and growing civilization, democracy MUST BE greater than capitalism.

      We as citizens need more of a voice, not in how industry is run, but in how it affects us; meaningful regulations that protect consumers and human health & safety.  I wouldn't want the government running businesses.  But I do want, and I think we all deserve a government that works to PROTECT US from business interests.

      "May the Great Bird of the Galaxy bless your planet." - Lt. Hikaru Sulu; STAR TREK - "The Man Trap;" How's THAT for gays in the military?

      by waiting for lefty on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:55:48 PM PDT

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    •  OR, simply: SOCIAL CAPITALISM! (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      MichaelNY, wolfie1818

      Sounds good to me.

      "May the Great Bird of the Galaxy bless your planet." - Lt. Hikaru Sulu; STAR TREK - "The Man Trap;" How's THAT for gays in the military?

      by waiting for lefty on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 04:57:10 PM PDT

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    •  Living overseas I have not been able (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wmholt, primarydoc

      to see his movie yet.

      But if his premise is that the solution is replacing capitalism with democracy, that is nonsensical.

      While they overlap as systems, and may function together; one is political while the other is economical.  And as such, they are also often at odds with each other as well where they don't function together.

      "Where they burn books, they will ultimately also burn people." - Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1821

      by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:01:31 PM PDT

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    •  It is not a dissertation or an argument (5+ / 0-)

      in symbolic logic.  Stop being intentionally obtuse.

      The movie wasn't made for you or me.  He is trying to reach people who learned about "free markets" and "communism" and "democracy" from a guy named Coach whose main goal in life was to go to State in whatever sport he was good at in high school.

      Americans value democracy - this is good.  It is a button to press.  Americans think they love capitalism - "free markets."  Moore is trying to speak to people with a very limited political and economic vocabulary, and knowledge of history, by suggesting that capitalism is for the few (which it is) and that it should be replaced by democracy - by people using the voting booth to better their lives, and also by syndicalism or market socialism, hence the bits in the movie about German workers with decision making power and cooperatives in the US.  But he can't reference either of those two - syndicalism or market socialism - without having to wade through a thicket of ignorance and 100+ years of anti-socialist propaganda, so he doesn't.  He meets people where they are at and tries to bring them along as far as he can, which should be the goal of every organizer.

      Is it right in the AJ Ayers sense of logical argumentation?  Certainly not.  Any sophomore majoring in philosophy could point out the holes.  But as a piece of organizing, it is simply brilliant.

      No public option. Well, at least we are no longer in Iraq or Afghanistan...

      by Pierro Sraffa on Fri Mar 26, 2010 at 05:02:46 PM PDT

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