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View Diary: 36 Still Images (Wikileaks Iraq Video & Update from Wikileaks) (77 comments)

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  •  Are you fucking kidding? (0+ / 0-)

    We're not back in the Revolutionary War.  Total War has been a fact of life for over a hundred years.  The "Greatest Generation" carpet-bombed Dresden and other German cities and civilians to oblivion - you calling them murderers too?

    •  wtf? (11+ / 0-)

      What does that have to do with anything?  You think shooting down unarmed people is ok?  What?

      They tortured people to get false confessions to justify invading Iraq.

      by yet another liberal on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 09:51:14 PM PDT

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    •  We're not back in the Revolutionary War nor (4+ / 0-)

      are we WWII. We are occupying what now is a 3rd world country-& that inevitably means killing unarmed civilians.

      Meteor Blades seems to do an outstanding job of community moderation despite the abject failure to be perfect.

      by catilinus on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 09:52:18 PM PDT

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      •  So it's ok? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        adrianrf, hulagirl

        Inevitable? This wasn't. This was optional.

        And it's still a war crime.

        "The human capacity for goodness makes democracy possible, but it's precisely the human capacity for evil that makes democracy utterly necessary." Gary Dorrien

        by ogre on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 10:46:11 PM PDT

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        •  NO-it is more of a war crime because it was (4+ / 0-)

          inevitable. The people who planned the illegal war against Iraq knew that atrocities would result from occupation. They didn't care. They banked on us not caring & they banked on future governments not holding them accountable.

          Meteor Blades seems to do an outstanding job of community moderation despite the abject failure to be perfect.

          by catilinus on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 10:50:07 PM PDT

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        •  Would you please point to the statute (0+ / 0-)

          in any of the Laws of War that criminalize making mistakes? You're not gonna find any. This was not a War Crime, this wasn't the deliberate killing of civilians.

          You need to watch the whole video. The gunner didn't just open up on the people on the ground. He spotted weapons amongst the civilians. He asked for confirmation he got it. He asked for permission to fire, he got it. He fired until all the targets were down. He ceased firing on Saeed Chmagh once he saw he was wounded and posed no threat. When the van arrives, he again asks for confirmation. He gets it, he asks for permission to fire, he gets it and he fires.

          A War Crime is more than just a shitty situation in which innocent people die. To pretend every situation in which innocent civilians die is just destroying the very concept of a War crime.

          •  I watched. (9+ / 0-)

            He asked for permission. Sure.

            The van? Not a weapon there.

            He "spotted" weapons?  No. He said he did.

            There weren't 5-6 AKs. There appeared to be one--which then magically became many.

            Firing on the guys who stopped the van, picked up a wounded guy and were leaving? That's a "mistake"? There wasn't any "picking up bodies," which was what was stated on the audio. They came to the aid of the one man moving; no weapons were visible.

            War crime.

            "The human capacity for goodness makes democracy possible, but it's precisely the human capacity for evil that makes democracy utterly necessary." Gary Dorrien

            by ogre on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 11:08:02 PM PDT

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          •  Shooting wounded combatants (8+ / 0-)

            Is a war crime. Once a foe has been wounded and is no longer attacking (in this case they weren't shooting at all) you can be subject to a war crime if you shoot them anyway.

            This is especially true in this case because there were no US ground troops engaging this group. It was an aerial assault with plenty of range and opportunity to assess the situation clearly.

            This is something particularly heinous by our military. In the second battle of Fallujah we intentionally bombed known clinics and a smaller hospital and shot up the main hospital. Buildings that were identified as "field" hospitals - one such setup was in a theater - were also subject to air strikes.

          •  I would agree with you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Robobagpiper

            up until they opened fire on the van, the men assisting a wounded man and the wounded man himself.

            "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

            by newfie on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:15:19 AM PDT

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    •  Hitler had invaded most of Europe... (6+ / 0-)
      Which countries were we trying to get Iraq to withdraw from?

      "When all you have is an assault rifle every problem looks like a target." - Something the Dog Said

      by PvtJarHead on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 10:00:11 PM PDT

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      •  Answer: Iraq. n/t (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        2lucky, ratmach

        Meteor Blades seems to do an outstanding job of community moderation despite the abject failure to be perfect.

        by catilinus on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 10:56:00 PM PDT

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      •  That's a pretty lame excuse (0+ / 0-)

        the reason the Iraq and Afghan wars is taking so long is because we're much more humane today. By WWII standards large areas of both those countries would be smoldering glass.

        The fire bombing of Dresden or the Nuclear weapons dropped on Hiroshima aren't any less horrible incidents of the mass slaughter of Civilians because Hitler invaded Poland.

        Unless you're saying that the countless civilian deaths in World War II in a targeted campaign of violence are worth less than those killed today.

    •  Yes. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      yet another liberal, hulagirl

      The firebombing of Dresden was a crime.

      Total war has no place in law or ethics. It may be a brute reality--but the brutal truth cuts both ways; those who participate in it in the way we saw are still criminals, as are those who covered it up, declaring that everyone there was an insurgent--oopsie, except for the two who Reuters could absolutely affirm were journalists (and "we" will just sweep them under the rug, since they were with "insurgents").

      I've watched this--I've watched the scene where the claim is that there are 5-6 AKs. I can see one.

      War crime. Hopped up on hate and/or adrenaline doesn't constitute a defense. Just an explanation. Still a war crime.

      "The human capacity for goodness makes democracy possible, but it's precisely the human capacity for evil that makes democracy utterly necessary." Gary Dorrien

      by ogre on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 10:45:16 PM PDT

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    •  Carpet bombing Dresden (4+ / 0-)

      was definitely questionable, but any crime wasn't in the pilots flying the mission, but in the planners who knew how irrelevant Dresden was as a target.  Your analogy is unfair.
      Every indication is that some of the soldiers involved in this mission knew that there was no significant threat to Americans, or anyone else.  If one person carrying a weapon in Iraq is justification for eradication of a dozen, than you may as well say that murdering everyone in the country is justified.
      If we can't do better than this, then we need to leave immediately. America never treated occupied Japan or Germany like this.

      "All the world's a stage, and most of us are desperately unrehearsed." ~ Sean O'Casey

      by Andhakari on Mon Apr 05, 2010 at 11:05:18 PM PDT

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    •  Dresden was a war crime. nt (0+ / 0-)

      Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. -MLK

      by Tom J on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 08:02:23 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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