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View Diary: The (Jewish) NYT is Crucifying the Pope!? (145 comments)

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  •  He's directing it at all critics. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sfbob, Involuntary Exile

    He's playing the victim card, using the central story of his adherents' mythology.  It has nothing to do with Jews.  It has to do with "oh, look, the poor Pope, the lamb of god is being victimized by these terrible godless people".  In which category falls EVERYONE who dares to point the finger at him.  They're not excluding Jews from that group, but they're not singling them out, either.  The diarist's response is paranoid.

    That is the least convoluted and most reasonable explanation for the comments, and the one that makes the most strategic sense, given the pickle they're in.  

    •  Look: (0+ / 0-)

      If you're a member of a group who has been persecuted for millenia, you would not consider it paranoid. And surely, you would not accuse a Black man of being paranoid for going ballistic over someone joking about burning crosses.

    •  Ok, but the reference to (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Eternal Hope, Corwin Weber

      "the shouts of the mob" and the "scourging at the pillar" could be viewed as a scriptural reference that has an anti-semitic import.

      (Just sayin'.  I'm not convinced, myself).

      Hill? What hill? No one said there was going to be a hill . . . . Was there a sign?

      by Jersey Jon on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:10:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't buy it. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Involuntary Exile

        You can only get there if you start with the ASSUMPTION that it's about Jews and not just critics in general.

        •  Yeah, I'm not convinced either, but (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dracowyrm

          I'm not as sure as you are.  As I said in an earlier comment, There was a sermon by another bishop that definitely DID have the ring of anti-semitism.  Here.

          Hill? What hill? No one said there was going to be a hill . . . . Was there a sign?

          by Jersey Jon on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 03:23:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I never said there wasn't anti-semitism among... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Involuntary Exile

            some Catholics, including heirarchs.  I'm not making that argument.  I'm simply saying that this does not make it reasonable to make the claim made by the diarist.

            •  Very well: (0+ / 0-)

              Are you familiar with the various religious pogroms that the Church leadership used against the Jews during the Middle Ages?

              •  Yes, but irrelevant. (0+ / 0-)

                We're talking about Dolan's speech.  We're not talking about the Middle Ages.  Claiming that there is an unbroken chain--a conspiracy--that leads from one to the other is a continuation of paranoid thinking.  

                No one in this comment thread, including the diarist, has actually been able to put together a decent argument to support his thesis.  Changing the subject doesn't change that.

                •  It has everything to do with it. (0+ / 0-)

                  It's not a matter of alleging some kind of conspiracy. It's a matter of pointing out how a reasonable person can interpret these remarks as anti-semitic. Since you are familiar with these pogroms, can you see how a reasonable person, who has been the target of antisemitism, can interpret Dolan's remarks as anti-semitic?

              •  What has that got to do with the diarist's (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Dracowyrm

                claim?  Are we to assume that any criticism of its critics made by the Catholic hierarchy is aimed at Jews and anti-semitic in nature because of their treatment of Jews in the Middle Ages?  I think that's a real stretch.

                "I believe that ignorance is the root of all evil. And that no one knows the truth." - Molly Ivins

                by Involuntary Exile on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 04:08:05 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Gatordiet

                  But wouldn't a reasonable person see a similarity between the imagery used by Dolan where he equated Benedict to Christ and the kind of inflammatory rhetoric used in the Middle Ages to justify the treatment of the Jews?

                  •  No. I am a reasonable person and a non-Christian, (0+ / 0-)

                    and I do not see any similarity between Dolan's language and persecution of Jews by the Catholic church in the Middle Ages.  What I see is a metaphor for the much larger group of anti-Catholics of all stripes.  I think it is all too easy to read anti-semitism into crucifixion references if that is what you want to see.  Crucifixion metaphors are about the suffering of Jesus for the sake of others, not about who made him suffer.  The metaphor is based upon the belief that Jesus sacrificed himself, suffered crucifixion and death that he could have avoided, to save all mankind from eternal death.  It's not about who put him to death.  That part is immaterial to modern Christians since he could have chosen not to die.

                    "I believe that ignorance is the root of all evil. And that no one knows the truth." - Molly Ivins

                    by Involuntary Exile on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 05:00:35 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And Dolan has it all backwards. (0+ / 0-)

                      For him, it is about the people who make Benedict suffer, which he then proceeds to equate with Jesus. No remorse whatsoever for all the suffering that millions of children have undergone at the hands of pedophile priests who people like him actively protected. So while I accept that this is a broad-based attack, I can see how this diarist and others can see how Dolan might be showing a gross lack of sensitivity to the Jews. One of the main lines of attack that the Church used during the Middle Ages was that the Jews (as opposed to the rulers) made Jesus suffer; therefore, the ends justify the means.

                      •  I must correct one inaccuracy in your comment (0+ / 0-)

                        To quote from Dolan's Palm Sunday message:

                        "Anytime this horror, this vicious sin, this nauseating crime is reported, as it needs to be, victims and their families are wounded again, the vast majority of faithful priests bow their heads in shame anew and sincere Catholics like you experience another dose of shock, sorrow and even anger," Dolan said.

                         

                        From the AP account:

                        Dolan credited the pope for making possible the progress the Catholic Church has made in the United States against "this sickening sin and crime," saying changes "could never have happened without the insistence and support of the very man now being daily crowned with thorns by groundless innuendo."

                        He asked whether the church and the pope "need intense scrutiny and just criticism for tragic horrors long past?"

                        "Yes! Yes!" he said, answering his question. "He himself has asked for it, encouraging complete honesty, at the same time eloquently expressing contrition and urging a thorough cleansing.

                        "All we ask is that it be fair and that the Catholic Church not be singled out for a horror that has cursed every culture, religion, organization, institution, school, agency and family in the world," he said.

                        It is my personal belief that people who choose victimhood see prejudice where they choose to see it.  Some people are vociferously anti-Christian.  If they are also prone to see themselves as victims they will find "evidence" to reinforce their anti-Christian views even if said "evidence" is constructed of the thinnest possible gruel.

                        "I believe that ignorance is the root of all evil. And that no one knows the truth." - Molly Ivins

                        by Involuntary Exile on Tue Apr 06, 2010 at 06:44:24 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Why invoke the shouts of the Mob (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eternal Hope, Corwin Weber

          which the Archbishop's bible claims is a murderous Jewish mob, If not to make an anti-semitic attack?

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