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  •  We have a lot of legal citizens (0+ / 0-)

    of all colors and creeds  that have been  out of work for a long time now.   This will be the  biggest challenge to Dems and Obama in future elections.   I would not be surprised to see more laws like this and declining support at the federal level for amnesty type solutions.     It is not about racism, it is about what is legal and what is fair.

    •  Again this is not an amnesty diary (4+ / 0-)

      It is about the violation of peoples civil liberties and yes even illegal immigrants have "civil rights".  We do not have two classes of humans in the United States.  At least not yet........

      I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

      by gtghawaii on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 03:48:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Try being an illegal immigrant in Germany (0+ / 0-)

        The Germans do not have a sense of humor about it, and they are (arguably) the Grand F***ing Masters of All Things Oppressive.

        Is there an element of racism of it in Germany? Probably. But when the Berlin wall fell it was all about the jobs.

        I hate to sound like Lou Dobbs here, but the problem of illegal immigrants won't go away until the USA really strong-arms other countries into changing their ways. And as long as there are cheap shoes/TVs/whatever to be sold that ain't gonna happen.

        •  The problem of illegal immigration (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          debedb, Alec82, James Robinson

          will not go away until we "Americans" either stop knowingly hiring them so we can pay poverty wages or until we adopt a saner immigration policy that allows for migrant workers.  

          Comparing the US and Germany immigration enforcement is apples to oranges......generally the hispanic immigrants do work that Americans don't want to do.  They are not stealing anyones job.

          I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

          by gtghawaii on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 04:14:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I assure you, illegal immigrants don't just (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FuddGate

            pick lettuce in the fields for crappy wages. They also work in a lot of warehouses, loading and unloading trucks and doing a lot of other work that, yes, Americans would be happy to do.

            I see it every. single. day. These people are being exploited in the name of bigger profit. The fallout is lower wages all around and a smaller tax base when income taxes aren't paid.

            Just to be clear: are you stating that there are no agricultural jobs in Germany, or that those agricultural jobs that do exist are any easier there?

            If comparing the USA and Germany is apples to oranges then that can be the only logical conclusion, given that the premise is that illegals only take jobs that US citizens won't do.

            •  No they also (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Phil S 33, Alec82

              Clean our houses, mow our grass, babysit our children, make our food and yes work in wharehouse and construction jobs doing blue collar work.  Having been in the recruiting business for 15 years in California I have a fairly broad knowledge and experience with the problem.  You are right they are being exploited for the low wages employers can pay them.  Instead of going after the employers though Americans would rather villainize the immigrant workers that are providing the supply to our demand than admit that "we" are the problem by not holding employers accountable and insisting on livable wages and yes having immigration laws that allow migrant workers.  

              What I'm saying that our immigration problems are unique to the United States and I can't see how Germany's rules correlate to our problem.  

              As a side note, there are quite a few unemployed Americans that are not willing to do the work an immigrant does.  I knew a woman who was on welfare for 5 years and bemoaned the fact she just couldn't find a job.  She had no skills to speak of.  One day she was on a rant about those awful illegal immigrants.  She went on and on......until finally I said fine, why don't we deport them all and you will finally have a job.  XYZ farms will have openings.  She was OFFENDED by the mere suggestion.  She was not willing to pick any strawberries or do anything she felt was "beneath" her.  I'm sorry but as an "American" you are not better than the immigrant in the field picking strawberries.  You just have had more opportunities.  

              The unwillingness of Americans to do manual labor is shown by the shortage of high schoolers that would consider a non-skilled or skilled trade job.

              I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

              by gtghawaii on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 05:00:52 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  "Their" ways? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gtghawaii

          There are only immigrants here because we want cheap labor.  You'll notice that there was a massive decline in the undocumented population in California following the recession.

          Anyway, we can't deport millions of people.  We just need to legalize their status and provide a path to citizenship; neither here nor there, because this proposed law is obnoxious for a variety of reasons.

          Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

          by Alec82 on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 04:43:43 PM PDT

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          •  Couldn't agree more...nt (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alec82

            I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

            by gtghawaii on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 05:20:40 PM PDT

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          •  Who Is 'We'? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Brooke In Seattle, FuddGate

            There are only immigrants here because we want cheap labor

            I don't want cheaper labor. This is just as fallacious a statement as 'they mow our lawns, they take care of our kids', etc. Nobody mows my lawn, nobody takes care of my kids, and illegal immigrants are not limited to mowing lawns and taking care of kids.

            My neighbor is an illegal immigrant and he does tile work and construction -- just the kind of jobs "that Americans won't do" -- yeah?

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 05:28:17 PM PDT

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            •  The fact is, though... (0+ / 0-)

              ...that you could solve illegal immigration tomorrow by passing a law, then throwing people found to have hired illegal immigrants in prison for a long time. You wouldn't need to even bother deporting anyone; when you find someone you just ask where they work and go arrest that person.

              If dishwashing jobs in Canada paid $50/hour you'd see lots of Americans, in fact the same Americans bitterly complaining about illegal immigration, jumping the border. You can't stop that kind of thing any more than you can stop the tide.

              Building a wall with Mexico, fences, guards, all idiotic and costly ideas. Just throw people in prison who hire illegal immigrants and give that bureau a decent budget and the 'problem' will solve itself.

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 08:06:21 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We Cannot Simply 'Go After The Employers' (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sparhawk

                The law, in a practical sense, has made it impossible to do so, and this has been the case since the 1986 IRCA. Please see this diary as to why.

                Also, there is no practical will to 'go after the employers'.

                The Democratic Party doesn't want to do so because it would dissolve their new voter base no less effectively than deportation, and it subverts their access to money and power, which is driving much of why we have the massive illegal immigration problem that we have today.

                The Republican Party doesn't want to 'go after the employer' because it destroys big businesses access to cheaper labor and, as with the Democratic Party, it would subvert their access to money and power.

                <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                by superscalar on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 08:26:25 PM PDT

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                •  I agree... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...with everything you wrote. My point is just that all this ridiculous caterwauling by both parties is obnoxious. If we really wanted to solve the 'problem', it is one of the easier problems to solve, requiring tweaks to the law, little new technology, and only a modest investment.

                  I am agnostic as to whether our economy net benefits or net loses because of illegal immigration.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 08:37:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It's An Easy Problem (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Sparhawk

                    it is one of the easier problems to solve, requiring tweaks to the law, little new technology, and only a modest investment

                    In a practical sense, it is not an easy problem in a political sense. What is required is to either remove the 'knowingly' clause from 8 USC 1324 (which is neither fair nor politically feasible), or institute a 'national id card' which is, practically speaking, not forgeable.

                    Creating the 'tamper proof id' of the 1986 IRCA is fairly easy from a technological standpoint, but politically speaking one has to get it by the privacy advocates on both the left and right of the political spectrum, and one has to get it past LULAC, NCLR, ACLU, and the rest of those organizations who have been opposing worksite and interior enforcement of immigration law since 1986.

                    Lastly, one would have to get it by the political, and money and power, elements (Council on Foreign Relations, Business Roundtable, Chamber of Commerce, etc.) that will fight it tooth and nail to that extent that I don't think it will ever become a reality (if  it were going to happen, I suspect it would have happened by now).

                    <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                    by superscalar on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 08:50:20 PM PDT

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          •  Who Is 'They' (0+ / 0-)

            We just need to legalize their status and provide a path to citizenship;

            The ones here today ... or the next 12 million who will follow them tomorrow?

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 05:29:50 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Explain to me how (0+ / 0-)

        checking an individual's  legal status  violates their civil rights?    Would you be more comfortable  checking an individual's  legal status as a  requirement of employment?   Don't care what color the individual is, what sex, what religion,  what political party.    Just want them to be legal before they get a job my native born neighbor should have.

        •  It Doesn't Matter (0+ / 0-)

          Would you be more comfortable  checking an individual's  legal status as a  requirement of employment?

          Whether they are comfortable with it or not, it's the law and it already happens.

          <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

          by superscalar on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 05:24:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Legal status checks for employment (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ahianne, Kevskos, James Robinson

            are fine. But walking down the street and being asked to prove citizenship because of racial profiling when no law has been broken is a violation of civil rights. The US does not require anyone to carry proof of citizenship.

            •  Strictly Speaking No (0+ / 0-)

              The US does not require anyone to carry proof of citizenship.

              But try telling that to the next cop who says to you 'can I see some identification please' -- yes you may have a case in court -- but it has been my experience that every time I have argued with a cop I have ended up in jail.

              Beyond this point, it is required that green card and visa holders in the U.S. carry that paperwork with them at all times.

              And lastly, let's face facts, Arizona is being, for lack of a better term, overrun. You may not like the term 'overrun', but that is in fact what is occurring in Arizona.

              <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 05:54:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Do you support a National ID card (0+ / 0-)

                if one that is secure could be designed?

                •  A VERY Good Question (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mariachi mama

                  In my heart of hearts ... no ... but as you know I have studied the issue of immigration and illegal immigration in particular for a long time now. I am convinced that the only way that the U.S. can, practically speaking, end illegal immigration is thru what many might call a 'national id card'.

                  I do believe that we can design a biometrically encoded social security card that could be required to be shown at employment time (we require any number of id's now).

                  There are any number of reasons why I don't think this biometrically encoded id will come to pass however -- and I think that the Schumer Graham legislation is just a rehash of IRCA -- what will occur is that those in the country illegally will be made legal, there will be some tweaks to legal immigration which skew legal immigration even more towards citizens of Mexico than it is now, and the rest will go by the wayside.

                  One only has to look at the constituency to do 'comprehensive immigration reform', what they want out of it, and what will happen once they have gotten what they want.

                  What people like Frank Sharry and Janet Murgia publicly call 'comprehensive immigration reform' they privately call 'US/Mexico'.

                  <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                  by superscalar on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 06:57:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I think the only way to (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    superscalar

                    crack down on employers is to have some sort of national ID, which I know raises a lot of concerns, and frankly I would just love to see some OC housewives hauled off to prison for their hiring of household help.

                    I wish we could have a rational discussion about immigration reform without all the name calling (I've been guilty but realize it's not productive) and cliche.

                  •  Also I think (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    superscalar

                    that the drug war have to be included in the equation. I am really disappointed that Obama is continuing on the same failed path of the Bush administration in funding the militarization of Mexico.

                  •  Oh I have so many thoughts (0+ / 0-)

                    on immigration and every single discussion devolves into arguements about words and geography which drives me fucking nuts and doesn't address the economic, political and cultural issues.

        •  We already check legal status (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kevskos

          In employment!  It's called the I9 form all employee's are required to fill out.  If your employer does not require it then they are violating federal immigration law.

          I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

          by gtghawaii on Tue Apr 13, 2010 at 05:28:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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