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  •  Turkana DADA was THE art movement of the 20th cen (6+ / 0-)

    and the FOUNTAIN was voted THE most influential art work of the 20th century...  

    While it had its impact on culture and politics it had it most lasting impact on ART itself for when Duchamp declared ANYTHING is art he opened a pandoras box that led the way for everything we know and accept as ART today...

    and he both overvalued and devalued art at the same time...  without dada there would not have been WARHOL or Kostabi or a whole host of pretenders to duchamps throne :)  Rausenburg and Johns would have never existed...  cage would never have composed and Cunningham would have been a nice ballet dancer...

    Performance art would never have come into being and the beatles would never have gone on that mystery tour...  it all grew out of DADA...and surrealism, which in MY opinion was a movement by artists to revalue ART but still maintain elements of the devaluation from DADA...surrealists wanted art to be special again...something an artist MAKES and that has value but they wanted to maintain the lack of limitations on art that DADA did away with :)  whew...  

    "We have passed beyond the absurd, our position is absolutely preposterous" - Ron Tavel

    by KnotIookin on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 04:54:34 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  heh (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KnotIookin, old wobbly, sboucher

      i disagree with much of that. because duchamp was wrong- anything can't be art. his own works aren't even interesting, anymore, other than as cultural relics. and i don't consider warhol much of an artist. johns, at his best, i see as more influenced by the fauvists than anything remotely dadaist, despite the labels. and rauschenberg, cage, and cunningham are on another plane from anything the dadaists did, which sort of underscores my point- the idea of dadaism was what was interesting. the works themselves are rarely even artistic. the fountain was an idea. seeing one of its versions is utterly unimpressive. and the beatles were influenced by ken kesey, not the dadaists.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 05:23:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The works may be "relics" but it was the concept, (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KnotIookin, Turkana, Ice Blue

        the idea, that was so groundbreaking and influential. Of course a urinal isn't interesting to look at, but that wasn't the point. It isn't a work of art you need to see in person because you can understand the concept of the piece and why it was made.

        Johns' work, particularly his earliest flag paintings, owe much more to the concept of "object as art" than the likes of fauvists like Matisse. As did Claes Oldenburg with "The Store," which deflated an artwork's value as a commodity to be bought and sold. With Rauchenberg, they were sometimes referred to as "Post-Dada."

        Museums now buy concepts. A great example is Sol Lewitt: his works are directions that can executed by anyone. [I personally got to paint on one and it was thrilling.]

        It's not just a zip code, it's an attitude.

        by sboucher on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 05:46:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i loved lewitt's installations! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sboucher

          but johns's flags are less interesting to me than his colorful works. i'm fine with conceptual art, but it's concept, not art. i love art that has a visceral impact, and it can be anything from anywhere or any era.

          the irony about tzara, as stoppard skewers, is that despite his pretensions to challenging social and cultural values, he wanted his ideas and his writings to be celebrated. despite his pose, he completely bought into the idea of the artist as cultural hero.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 07:19:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Johns continued to use recognizable emblematic (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KnotIookin, Turkana

            visuals -- such as numbers, targets, and maps -- throughout the changes his paintings, prints & assemblages underwent as he developed as an artist.

            I have to strongly disagree with you that Conceptual Art isn't art. In fact, one of the things it championed was the continued de-commodification of art as instilled by the Dadaists. It also spawned performance art, installation art, and movements like Fluxus.

            Would you consider John Cage's "4 minutes 33 seconds" not art? Myself, I consider it art of the highest order.

            In 1956, recalling the infinitesimals of G.W. Leibniz, quantities which could not actually exist except conceptually, the founder of Lettrism, Isidore Isou, developed the notion of a work of art which, by its very nature, could never be created in reality, but which could nevertheless provide aesthetic rewards by being contemplated intellectually. (sorry Wikiagain)

            It's not just a zip code, it's an attitude.

            by sboucher on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 09:27:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  johns and rauschenberg both (0+ / 0-)

              syncretized the visual with the conceptual, and their greatness lay in their ability to do so.

              i do find it ironic that dadaism is considered to have de-commodified art, because it really just made a commodity of its own new parameters. duchamp wouldn't have sought a public posture had he truly believed in de-commodifying. it was a gimmick, and a clever one. you could even say that the concept was artistic; but visual art, to me, should be visually artistic.

              isou didn't go anywhere that taoists and zen buddhists had been going for centuries. art as conceptual koan.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 10:43:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Turkana I once had this same arguement with (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Turkana

            some teachers of mine...  I had made these dances based on the fisher spassky chess matches and my teachers called them drawings but I insisted they were dances, then they argued they were 'dance notations' but I still insisted they were Dances in and of themselves because that was what I thought they were when I made them...  since the art was mine and the concept was mine my teachers lost the arguement and I passed my mid year studio review :)

            you and I totaly disagee about DaDa and yet we can both be 100% correct because Duchamp says Art is in the eye of the beholder when he proclimed everything is art IF the artist says it is because by the very same note everyONE is an artist if they claim to be one :) so as an artist you can proclaim anything you want to be NOT ART even if, as an artist I claim it is ...  doncha jess love Duchamp

            "We have passed beyond the absurd, our position is absolutely preposterous" - Ron Tavel

            by KnotIookin on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 09:39:05 PM PDT

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            •  ultimately, yes (0+ / 0-)

              art is entirely subjective. but that can lead to a loss of the very concept of art. greenberg even held that truly original art should appear ugly, at first. conceptual art led to people hanging small type-written assemblages of words. not even poems. sometimes conceptual, sometimes not. we could say thomas kincaid is art. or velvet elvises.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 10:48:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  This dilettante agrees. (0+ / 0-)

      It was common for American art exhibits to be held in armories but there's only one Armory Show.

      It is better to know some of the questions than all of the answers.--James Thurber

      by Ice Blue on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:06:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, wait (0+ / 0-)

        I just googled "Turkana dada" thinking it was some off-shoot i'd never heard of (and wondering if Kossack Turkana's handle was related), and got lots of hits about Idi Amin Dada and the Turkana region of Kenya. I see, now, that you were replying to Turkana (whose comment i hadn't noticed). Eats, shoots, and leaves and all that.

        Actually, i shouldn't have bothered explaining and left it to others to try to figure out.

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