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View Diary: "Honor" Killings: Two-Day Old Baby Girl Buried (329 comments)

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  •  Well the country where this happened is trying (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    protectspice, Susan G in MN

    to end the practice of honor killings, which is common in some parts. But the government of Turkey (where this happened) has taken a very clear stand against it. Don't you think they deserve our help and encouragement.

    P.S. This comment demonstrates exactly what I find wrong with this diary.

    ORGANIZE early, ORGANIZE often.

    by bicycle Hussein paladin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 08:20:07 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  So we shouldn't discuss it (0+ / 0-)

      and we're being culturally imperialistic by even raising the issue and we should just shut up because it's just Middle Easterner Punching...

      Right?  Isn't that what you are saying?

      "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

      by leftykook on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 08:26:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What do you think our policy towards Turkey (0+ / 0-)

        should be, based on what you've read in the diary?

        ORGANIZE early, ORGANIZE often.

        by bicycle Hussein paladin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 08:31:16 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually I'm not sure (0+ / 0-)

          ...but I see your point that it doesn't help to attack Turkey when they are trying to do something about this horrible situation.

          I don't know enuf about Turkey and it's history and I guess I should get hot on reading the unread books I've got floating around here...

          "Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about THAT!"

          by leftykook on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 09:04:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There was no attacking of Turkey in the (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            triv33, Alice Olson, efraker

            diary though.

            Join Our Countdown To Health Reform! Project I work with Progressive Congress Action Fund, a 501(c)4.

            by slinkerwink on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 09:08:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, but you don't need to... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              protectspice, Shhs

              attack Turkey specifically for people to come away with the conclusion that this whole thing is about a conflict between the US and societies that don't give women as good legal rights (which, obviously, isn't the problem in the example you give).

              This is not a purely academic disagreement.

              The cause of liberating women is constantly touted as justification for the war in Afghanistan. It is used as a more general justification for promoting hostility towards Iran, and we all know how much waging war on Iran is a big part of the neocon agenda right now. It's not a small or insignificant risk that we run by saying things that play into the hands of the war party, when we could make an even more compelling case for this bill by talking about other examples of violence against women.

              ORGANIZE early, ORGANIZE often.

              by bicycle Hussein paladin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 09:16:19 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  what are you saying? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                slinkerwink

                It's not a small or insignificant risk that we run by saying things that play into the hands of the war party, when we could make an even more compelling case for this bill by talking about other examples of violence against women.

                I'm not 100% clear on this - are you saying that you believe there is a possibility that the US might invade Turkey, a staunch NATO ally, a site of US nuclear missiles, and which is nearly a member of the EU?

                I wouldn't take that bet.

                Further, isn't it apparent that the war party doesn't require ideas to be current or truthful to use them as a reason to invade? The war party sold Iraq WMDs in the 80s, knew they weren't there in the 90s, and declared them their reason for invading in the 00s.

                "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

                by efraker on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 10:10:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Obviously, continuing the war in Afghanistan (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  protectspice

                  or expanding it to other countries is the fear. Am I wrong to think that the war against Iraq was made immensely more acceptable to the public by completely accurate, verifiable accusations against Saddam Hussein? Largely accurate perceptions of how awful he was made the accusations that he was harboring WMD a lot more believable to a lot of Americans. Not that we should have defended Saddam Hussein, but we should be mature and cautious enough to recognize jumping on the anti-Saddam bandwagon played right into an agenda that was far worse than Saddam himself.

                  Put it another way: it's like saying that the problem with the Catholic Church is that celibacy leads to their having a lot of gay priests, who then abuse children. We might all oppose the Church on celibacy and their cover-ups of abusive priests, but making the argument this way adds completely unnecessary homophobia to the picture, which plays into the hands of right-wing protestants who are more than happy to skewer both the Church and gays at the same time.

                  ORGANIZE early, ORGANIZE often.

                  by bicycle Hussein paladin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 10:24:37 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  ok - I think I understand now (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    slinkerwink, erush1345

                    You say that your fear was "obviously, continuing the war in Afghanistan or expanding it to other countries". You don't disagree with my claim that the idea the US would invade Turkey is this side of inconceivable, so I'm going to guess that this isn't one of the countries you're talking about. Obviously, if it was, you'd have to have a credible scenario where we would invade Turkey.

                    So, if I understand you, you're not talking about this diary per se, but about how we need to be careful that our criticisms don't help the war party. I agree, good point.

                    "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

                    by efraker on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 10:41:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am talking about this diary, it contributes (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      efraker

                      to the mistaken belief that the US is in some kind of culture war with other countries over women's rights. This perception is already being used to promote wars such as that in Afghanistan. The fact that governments of Muslim(-majority) countries actually share the goals of the VAWA (in many if not most cases) is something the war party is eager to obscure, and something this diary doesn't do anything to help make clear. Which is a shame, because that would actually be a better representation of what the VAWA was about in the first place. Instead we get this horror story that sparks half a dozen comments criticizing... multiculturalism, and probably none of these people has a clue what the bill is even doing.

                      ORGANIZE early, ORGANIZE often.

                      by bicycle Hussein paladin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 11:10:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't appreciate being called the war (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        efraker

                        party here. I think you've mischaracterized the intent of this diary. This is about a civil rights issue, nothing more than that.

                        Join Our Countdown To Health Reform! Project I work with Progressive Congress Action Fund, a 501(c)4.

                        by slinkerwink on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 11:11:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I didn't call you the war party, and your intent (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          efraker

                          is not the target of my criticism, it's how you carried it out by writing about a subject that is sensationalized by the war party.

                          Look, I appreciate the work you've done promoting healthcare reform here, and I completely support the IVAWA. But I think you made some mistakes in this diary. The IVAWA is about preventing mass-rapes and promoting micro-lending to women and education and programs that protect women against domestic violence. And instead, half of the initial comments--that's probably not even an exaggeration--were about how awful honor killings are and how some cultures are superior to others and how multiculturalism is bad and religions are all evil.

                          I assume this wasn't the intent of your diary. But that's what people are talking about. Honor killings, while they are a serious problem that we absolutely should be taking special measures to address, simply were not the right issue to use to introduce people to the IVAWA.

                          I know my criticisms have been harsh, but please take this as constructive criticism and try to see where I and others are coming from. I doubt there's a single person here who really disagrees with the IVAWA, and yet here we have this raging argument...

                          ORGANIZE early, ORGANIZE often.

                          by bicycle Hussein paladin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 11:42:50 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  madness of crowds (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        bicycle Hussein paladin

                        it contributes to the mistaken belief that the US is in some kind of culture war with other countries over women's rights. This perception is already being used to promote wars such as that in Afghanistan...

                        ...Instead we get this horror story that sparks half a dozen comments criticizing... multiculturalism, and probably none of these people has a clue what the bill is even doing.

                        Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me; I see your point.

                        You know, Seneca Doane wrote a great, well-reasoned, non-sensational diary about human rights in Afghanistan that went absolutely nowhere. He had a specific report he wanted to discuss and perhaps... two? three? of his respondents actually read it.

                        I think your point about being careful about how what we write could be used against our interests is valid in general, but I just disagree that its applicable in regards to this diary. This diary is about a non-Arab secular democratic NATO ally who placed themselves in mortal danger by front-lining nuclear weapons for us during the cold war; yes - you are correct to point out that some people misinterpreted it, and took it as evidence of their own preconceived opinions that multiculturalism is a dead end.

                        I don't think this diary was anything but a marginally 'on-topic' opportunity to share them.

                        Finally - could you please diary more? I think you'd write great foreign policy diaries.

                        "Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange ... including a public option" President Obama, 7.18.09

                        by efraker on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 11:37:37 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  True, but some people don't really (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              protectspice

              have any working knowledge of Turkey, so they fill in the blanks w/stereotypes and other stuff.

              GOP = Godless opposition party We Hassle to make America a Vassal (state)

              by Shhs on Fri Apr 16, 2010 at 09:17:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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