Skip to main content

View Diary: What Conservatives Mean When They Say "Libertarian" (279 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Hornberger is not a typical Libertarian (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    BigOkie, stevemb

    at least judging by ones I have talked to..  Modern day Libertarians I have spoken with seem much less insistent on strict adherence to their Libertarian principles (as Hornberger calls for in that article).

    I wouldn't mean to speak for them, but in general I agree with some of them that government has become too large, pervasive and invasive.

    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

    by Skeptical Bastard on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:20:50 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You agree with (g)Libertians? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      third Party please, Dirtandiron

      What parts of government are too large?  Too pervasive?  Too invasive?

      Hopefully I am not understanding your point.  Help me out.

      Dawn is breaking everywhere Light a candle, curse the glare We will get by. We will survive.

      by MikeBoyScout on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:25:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Government owned car manufacturers? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stephen weinstein, stevemb

        Hello?

        State and local government laws restricting how much and what type of fat a restaurant can cook with?  How much salt you can intake?

        Here in Chicago we have a ban on handgun ownership.  That ban has worked so well we have had a spate of shootings so horrendous it makes national news.

        We get so used to government taking away our freedoms that we don't even question it any longer.

        "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

        by Skeptical Bastard on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:36:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You are at risk (12+ / 0-)

          Your examples show you are susceptible to propaganda.

          Before you, a Chicago resident, riff on government intrusion in to the food industry it would be a good start for you to go read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle.

          Regarding Chicago's restrictions on handguns and your sly assertion that it is in some way responsible for gun violence in your city, that is a ridiculous assertion.

          Dawn is breaking everywhere Light a candle, curse the glare We will get by. We will survive.

          by MikeBoyScout on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:45:20 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I made no assertion.. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stevemb

            I commenting on the ridiculousness of it.. Totally ineffective!  Yet "progressives" take on these fights to take away the rights of law abiding citizens continually.. despite the facts of their ineffectiveness staring them in the face.

            Food.  Did I say anything about food safety? No. Your response has nothing to do with the idiotic laws municipalities are creating to force diners to eat certain contents in foods regardless of how safe the foods are.

            "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

            by Skeptical Bastard on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:59:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Please (6+ / 0-)

              the idiotic laws municipalities are creating to force diners to eat certain contents in foods regardless of how safe the foods are.

              You have not cited any law so I can't know for sure, but I'd wager dollars to donuts that health and safety were a consideration in the creation of any law regulating food content.

              Care to prove me wrong?

              Regarding "progressive" laws taking away the rights of citizens, it is a pity you care to believe that.  As was made clear in this post, many of the regulations and laws in the past century have enhanced the lives of most people.

              Dawn is breaking everywhere Light a candle, curse the glare We will get by. We will survive.

              by MikeBoyScout on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 07:17:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I think that is an important point (5+ / 0-)

              Regulations should make sense and be effective in order for government to make a positive impact.  Government on both sides of the political spectrum have made ridiculous policy and regulatory decisions.  Naturally, many of us believe that decisions made by the "left" are better, overall.  That doesn't mean that those on the "right" have never done anything well--just not lately.  

              On a related note, you get quite a lot of lumps here, SB.  Not all of them deserved.  I, for one, appreciate the fact that you speak up with your point of view even when I don't agree with it.  I think that's important to keep the debate between the guardrails, so to speak.

              "When your heart skips a beat stay on your feet, don't throw that moment away!"--Rob Fetters, 'Fear is Never Boring'

              by BigOkie on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 07:20:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Libertarians disagree with you (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TracieLynn

                "Regulations should make sense and be effective in order for government to make a positive impact."

                Libertarians do not agree with that statement in principle.
                Of course, there are exceptions.
                Once you get past the happy talking points, Libertarians do not believe a government for the people, of the people and by the people can make a positive impact, and therefore should be forbidden from attempting to make any impact.

                Dawn is breaking everywhere Light a candle, curse the glare We will get by. We will survive.

                by MikeBoyScout on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 07:26:52 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with you (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TracieLynn, BMarshall, MikeBoyScout

                  And I disagree with the Libertarians.  I believe in the philosophies held by progressives/liberals/most Democrats.  On the whole, I think we do a better job of governing and I think you are correct that there are many examples of how "left" policies and regulations have made our country better, stronger, and healthier.  That does not mean that we are always right about everything.  The debate, I suppose, would have to focus on specific issues.

                  "When your heart skips a beat stay on your feet, don't throw that moment away!"--Rob Fetters, 'Fear is Never Boring'

                  by BigOkie on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 07:36:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks.. (0+ / 0-)

                I appreciate that..

                Sometime I feel I must play the devil's advocate.. sometimes, like today, I feel like I need to correct some misconceptions, which can be really off the charts.. like the impressions most folks around here have of Libertarians..

                But mostly, I think counter to a lot of peeps around here.. it's nice to know someone is listening.. lord knows I get enough grief for it!  :)

                "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

                by Skeptical Bastard on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 10:09:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  "Progressive" is meaningless in this context (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              All In

              The word you are looking for is "communitarian," which lies in the middle of the continuum that rangers from "libertarian" to "statist."

              The impetus to regulate the content of food in restaurants is the concern for public health. The same impulse led the Legislature in my home state (WA) to impose a sales tax on carbonated beverages that contain high fructose corn syrup.

              A libertarian might argue, with some justification, that the government has no business penalizing individuals' consumption decisions, but the communitarian argument for disincenting overuse of HFCS from a public health standpoint is just as colorable.

              "Lash those traitors and conservatives with the pen of gall and wormwood. Let them feel -- no temporising!" - Andrew Jackson to Francis Preston Blair, 1835

              by Ivan on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 08:07:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BMarshall, DontTaseMeBro

            Was dealing with issues of food safety a lot more basic than regulating the salt content of food sold in restaurants.

            The thing is that in a way, you're both right.  Basic food safety regulations and inspections to ensure that the food that we eat isn't tainted have been significantly cut back over the past 15 years.  In the nineties, the issue was that the Republican congress wouldn't budget the money to support agencies like the FDA properly, which resulted in cutbacks in the number of inspections at food processing plants.  Then when Bush took control of the White House, he placed industry cronies in leadership positions at the FDA (and other regulatory agencies), with the result that the FDA started looking after the interests of the industry instead of it's customers.  It's no coincidence that we saw a rash of high profile food poisoning cases in the past five years...

            And so while all that is going on, some folks are pushing for government restrictions on salt intake and the like.  And it is screwed up -- the focus should be on basic food safety:  ensuring that our food supply is not tainted.  Aside from that, I favor disclosure laws -- having restaurants prominently post nutritional information puts power in the hands of customers, and actually uses government power to enhance freedom.  In contrast, things like the salt intake nannyism are what have tended to give liberalism a bad name over the years.

            Yes, it is a balancing act.  Recognizing that doesn't mean that one is embracing Republican talking points or ideals.

            Political Compass: -6.75, -3.08

            by TexasTom on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 08:38:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Government sponsored railroads? Hello! nt (7+ / 0-)

          "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

          by grannyhelen on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:45:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The part that lets them spy on my phone calls? (4+ / 0-)

        The parts that put restrictions on a legal medical procedure; the parts that interfere in my private relationships because they happen to be with a person of the same gender; the parts grant eminent domain in order to seize my property so that a developer can turn a profit; the parts outlaw clove cigarettes because they "lead children to smoke."

        There's a lot of unnecessarily invasion of the private sphere by this and all governments.  I'm pretty much a social libertarian in that regard.

        "I'm living in an age that calls darkness light." -The Arcade Fire

        by electricgrendel on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:46:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  As opposed to government in the Gilded Age? (9+ / 0-)

      Seriously?

      As far as govt in the Gilded Age is concerned, you're talking about govt that flooded the gold market with 1/4 of govt gold reserves to stop a complete collapse of the currency and run on the banks, you're talking about a govt that started railroad through land grant initiatives...

      ...those aren't the moves of a "small government".

      "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

      by grannyhelen on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 06:44:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you being purposely obtuse here? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stephen weinstein

        Did I defend government in the gilded age? No.  That was Hornberger.

        "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

        by Skeptical Bastard on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 07:03:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're saying govt "has become too large" (8+ / 0-)

          and what I'm trying to tell you is that govt has always been large.

          That is the great fallacy of libertarian thinking - that somehow there was a time when we didn't have "big govt". There have been times when govt has used initiatives to help the wealthy, there have been times when govt has used initiatives to help the poor, working and middle classes...but unless you want to go to the time right after the Revolution and before the Articles of Confederation, there has always been "big government".

          "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

          by grannyhelen on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 07:11:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The REAL argument is probably based on whose (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            grannyhelen, BMarshall, rageagnstmach

            side the big government is on and whose ox it is goring: citizens in general or some oligarchy.

            Big government for the railroads and mine owners is just fine as long as it keeps those damn workers in line and even calls out troops to bust heads in their support. That, when you strip away all the chaff is what this brand of "Libertarian" is all about.

            When government is actually looking out for the interests of the common citizen and trust-busts or imposes restrictions on exploitation and abuse of the common citizen, such as telling some entrepreneur you cannot sell poison or cocaine in your home brew "medicine," then it is bad, bad big government.

            One of the most glaring flaws among those defending the "Libertarian" flag as noted in the article and here in this thread is flat out ignorance of the real history behind regulations and government interventions into commerce.

            The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

            by pelagicray on Sun Apr 18, 2010 at 08:13:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site