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View Diary: Burning oil rig sinks in the Gulf of Mexico, 11 still missing [updated] (145 comments)

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  •  How "Appropriate". (32+ / 0-)

    Hope President Obama sees this and rethinks his East Coast Oil Drilling plan.

    Time to get more electric cars on the road.

    Hey Frank Luntz - What Should I Say To Make Myself Sound Like A Brainless Parrot?

    by hopalong on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 12:50:13 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  he doesn't have to (18+ / 0-)

      stories like this will make off-shore drilling a non-starter.  

      People are upset Obama hasn't solved all the problems yet. C'mon, he's only been in office one year...the man went to Harvard, not Hogwarts. - Wanda Sykes

      by Cedwyn on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 12:56:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It Already Was. (10+ / 0-)

        As quite a lot of less knee-jerking green folk pointed out at the time.  The states have to go along with it, and apart from Alaska (which had a massive swath of it's coast protected by Obama in the announcement for this very reason), they won't.  

        All his plan did was give us some political cover for things this summer as gas prices go up and we head into the election.  It took away a GOP talking point, without actually doing anything damaging.

        There was, and will never be, any significantly expanded drilling.  These companies don't even want to explore most of the areas they're currently leasing.

        •  The other consideration: (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          worldlotus, Sunspots

          If the oil companies ramrod through a rig, for example, in the (relatively) small field off Virginia's coast, something interesting happens:

          There becomes absolutely zero reason to object to a wind farm in the same place. Hell, if the rig is running a flare boom, it could create enough smog that the wind farm won't even be visible.

          IMHO, not entirely a bad deal: An oil rig for a decade to get rid of any NIMBY objection over near-shore wind farms. The environmental costs have the potential to suck, but oil rigs could force the approval of wind farms on a fairly massive scale.

          Maybe communities will start asking for wind development on oil fields to prevent rigs from going in.

          It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

          by Gravedugger on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:12:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  yup (0+ / 0-)

          i said so at the time:

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          you can guess what ensued...LOL

          People are upset Obama hasn't solved all the problems yet. C'mon, he's only been in office one year...the man went to Harvard, not Hogwarts. - Wanda Sykes

          by Cedwyn on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 03:15:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Well, at the very least, this will provide ammo.. (13+ / 0-)

      ...for drilling opponents.

      Sucks this had to happen though.  What's the damage estimates on the wildlife out there?  This has got to hurt.

      "If these Republicans can't stand up to Rush, how can they stand up to the Iranians?" - Redmond Barry

      by xsonogall on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 12:57:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I hope that everyone who's reading this... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rogneid, myboo, hillgiant, DruidQueen

      who uses a car as their primary mode of transportation is on the waiting list for an electric car (or trying to get on such a waiting list).  Price is no longer an excuse.  Nissan's Leaf, after the federal tax credit, will be $25k nationwide and as low as $19k in some states -- yet can run at about two cents a mile and has almost no maintenance.  Mitsubishi's MiEV will be at least $2.5k cheaper.  And there are all sorts of other offerings coming out.

      You've all got no excuses now!  If we don't switch to electric, how can we expect others to?

      •  Price is no longer an excuse? (10+ / 0-)

        Yeah, because there are so many unemployed and underemployed people out there who can afford to plop down the monthly payments and insurance on a $19,000-$25,000 car. Sure, we've got record foreclosures and an unemployment rate between 10-20%, but "price is no longer an excuse" for people not to buy a new car!

        Call Congress and demand 2 Senators, 1 VOTING Rep, and full home rule for DC citizens. Anything less is un-American.

        by mistersite on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 01:44:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  First off... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          brillo, MD patriot, Rogneid, JanL

          when responding to a post, please read it first.  As I stated, the MiEV will be even cheaper, by at least $2.5k.  So the total range is $16,500 to $25,000.  That's a typical economy car price range, but with operating costs a fraction as much as a normal car.

          Sure, if you're unemployed things may be different at the moment, but so long as you can afford it, it's not just good for the environment and the budding industry -- it's good for your long-term pocketbook.  I mean, there's not even any oil changes for crying out loud.  Transmission problems or flushes?  Nope -- fixed gear.  Belts, pulleys?  None.  Fluids?  Only brake and wiper fluid.  Spark plugs?  Nope.  Alternator?  Nope.  Muffler and catalytic converter?  Nope.  There's literally 1/10th as many moving parts on an EV as there are on an internal combustion engine.  You've got a sealed motor designed to last the life of the vehicle, with all of the lubricant it needs, made of little more than a rod spinning loosely propelled by magnetic fields from opposing coils of wire, that turns a fixed-gear gearbox, to directly turn the wheels.  I believe the Leaf's motor is air cooled, so not even a radiator -- just a small fan.  The battery pack is air-cooled and is designed to last a decade.  And even if you do replace it, it's not battery prices now -- it's battery prices a decade from now.  And electricity is a third the price of gasoline, and the Leaf is a streamlined vehicle to begin with.

          So from the long-term point of view, you save yourself money.

          •  I need to go the biodiesel route. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sunspots

            I'm a special case, but what we need are several alternatives, not just electric cars.

            I have never spent over $10,000 for a car. Ever. I would have to wait for an used electric car, if it even met my needs, which it won't.

            I have a station wagon now...It is barely adequate for the long-distance, lots of baggage things I do now. Things that make me a (meager) income.

            An electric car just won't cut it. 500 pounds of cargo, and over 400 miles a day?

            I'm waiting on a diesel that I can run biodiesel in. Subaru has a diesel station wagon, but has yet to bring it to the US. Ford has a diesel Transit Connect. Again, not brought to the US.

            I will be able to afford a shiny brand new car next year...But it has to work for bother personal and business stuff. I can't buy two cars. That eliminates an electric car, and leaves me hoping for one of the two diesel options above to appear in the states.

            All I ask is a minor change in EPA emissions (per-gallon regulations, rather than per-car-by-class regulations), and automakers willing to sell me what I (and many others) want.

            Several alternatives: Electric is one. We need more. Luckily, they already exist. Just not in the US.

            It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

            by Gravedugger on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:22:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  400 miles *a day*? Every day? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MD patriot

              Wow, you sure are a special case.  That's 12 times the US national average!

              Mind you, 500 pounds of cargo is not a problem.  And if you're in an area that has fast chargers, you can still do that (the Leaf and MiEV can charge in 30 minutes)

              Biodiesel really isn't that great.  When land-use changes are taken into account, even sugarcane and cellulosic ethanol struggles to come up CO2-negative -- both of which are generally considered better than soybean biodiesel.  And palm biodiesel is an environmental nightmare.

              •  I didn't say every day... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sunspots

                Not every day, but often enough that an electric car won't do. I can't afford a 'town' car and 'work' vehicle both.

                I can basically guarantee that I won't be near fast chargers...Or even a hot shower in some cases.

                It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

                by Gravedugger on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 03:00:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  How often, out of curiosity? (0+ / 0-)

                  And do you currently drive the car that does 400 mile trips as your daily commuter as well?  I mean, every so often I need a cargo van, but I don't drive that around town as my daily commuter   ;)  Trying to make a single vehicle do everything means you have a vehicle that is mediocre at everything.

                  •  Longer trips every couple weeks (0+ / 0-)

                    I do longer trips every couple weeks. When the economy picks up, it will probably be weekly...And I don't have quite enough to merit a cargo van. A well-packed station wagon works fine. 4 seats means I can move people/family around during the week, and I flop the rear seats down, and can toss in 5 anvil cases, plus other stuff.

                    I'm probably one of the few people who actually makes use of a station wagon's design features.

                    It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

                    by Gravedugger on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 03:55:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So, what do you do when you need... (0+ / 0-)

                      to replace a refrigerator?  Or a furnace?   Or a washing machine?  Or a dryer?  Or haul plywood?  Or help a friend move?  Or on and on?  Surely you don't do that in a station wagon.

                      As for your (unusual) driving cycle, any of the following options would work well for you:

                      1. Plug-in hybrid
                      1. Genset trailer
                      1. Second vehicle (i.e., not ditching your current used vehicle)

                      With all of the miles that you go, switching to electric (lower energy cost, lower maintenance) would be a huge money-saver for you.

                      •  What do I need? (0+ / 0-)

                        Well, for the rare times when I need something larger, I rent. Or I tie plywood to the roof rack, or, for short-hauls in town, I risk a single axle trailer. Anyway:

                        1. Can't afford a new car. Not yet. And plug into what?  The 110v socket density in national forests, for instance, is lower than the density of meth labs in national forests.
                        1. This is precursed on having an electric car, so #1 applies. I don't need a generator for work, and why risk a blow-out/axle break? The only trailers light enough to pull behind an electric car are going to be single axle pieces of crap. The logistical problems of a trailer suck. Even with extra tires, single axle trailers pose a risk.

                        They are also expensive, and require extra fuel. Why not just use a gas car? Buying and towing a gas engine to charge my car is a $6500 dollar expense, assuming a small Kawasaki engine that's been proposed and about a 15 KW generator. My current car was cheaper than that.

                        1. See #1. I don't really want to own two vehicles if I don't have to. I don't want to pay for the parking, or the licensing, or the maintenance.

                        The sad fact is that we are stuck with petroleum or bio-fuels for some time.  I walk and bike whenever I can, but electric cars aren't quite there yet for me. My next car will be bio-fueled, and there are some good options coming that don't affect food supply, and don't have bad processing byproducts. The car after that might be electric. I would make the jump as soon as I had the budget, if there were something that worked. My hope is a diesel-electric hybrid drivetrain might appear from Subaru or Ford, or Toyota.

                        It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

                        by Gravedugger on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 07:16:19 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You rent. (0+ / 0-)

                          Well, for the rare times when I need something larger, I rent

                          So you gladly apply that logic to payload capacity.  Why not to range?

                          The 110v socket density in national forests, for instance, is lower than the density of meth labs in national forests.

                          No RV parks?  That's not 110V; that's 220V, 50A.  I'm not sure why specifically you mentioned national forests, so I can't go into other options.

                          I'd wager that power outlets are a lot more common in national forests than gas stations.

                          The only trailers light enough to pull behind an electric car are going to be single axle pieces of crap.

                          Wow, you're pre-judging the Long Ranger before you've ever tried it.  It gets excellent reviews.  But I guess you know better without having ever seen one, or probably even heard of it until this thread.

                          The logistical problems of a trailer suck.

                          Meaning?  If you're talking steering, the Long Ranger auto-tracks the direction of steering, so it's like it's not even there.

                          They are also expensive

                          Huh?  It's like $6k, and you can share one among dozens of people.

                          and require extra fuel. Why not just use a gas car?

                          No, it requires less fuel than a gasoline car.  It makes your EV into a series hybrid.  The generator gets to run at an optimum RPM and torque envelope at all times.

                          My current car was cheaper than that.

                          That's called "used".  Your car certainly wasn't that price new, adjusted for inflation.  Comparing "new" with "used" is obviously a biased comparison.

                            3.  See #1. I don't really want to own two vehicles if I don't have to. I don't want to pay for the parking, or the licensing, or the maintenance.

                          Maintenance will be lower.  EVs have almost no maintenance, and if it's your primary driver, your gasoline car will need little more than its periodic scheduled maintenance.  And you're talking about paying a lot, yet you're talking about driving twice as much or so compared to the average American, and EVs cost a small fraction as much per mile.  Heavy drivers are ideal for saving money by going to electric.

                          The sad fact is that we are stuck with petroleum or bio-fuels for some time.  

                          Only when people apply different logic to payload capacity versus range.  And only when people consider only expenses and ignore savings.

                          My next car will be bio-fueled, and there are some good options coming that don't affect food supply

                          Even sugarcane and cellulosic ethanol, among the best, are likely CO2-positive when you consider land-use changes, and are 10-20 times more land-intensive than even solar power, and use huge amounts of water per mile.  And there's a lot of... quite honestly, nonsense about a lot of potential fuels.  For example, the ones that grow on "marginal" lands, like jatropha and switchgrass.  They tell you that they can grow on marginal lands, and that that they can get high yields per acre, but they don't bother to mention that they can't do both at once.  You can grow them on marginal lands and get tiny yields, or you can get good yields on farmland, thus displacing food.

                    •  Another thing to consider (0+ / 0-)

                      Why would you have to get rid of the station wagon?  I imagine its bluebook is almost nothing (I got the impression that it's old and has a lot of miles on it).  And having an old backup car on your insurance costs very little.

          •   (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MD patriot, Sunspots

            The point was, if you're choosing between a new traditional car and a new electric car, price may no longer be an excuse, but choosing between the car you already have and a new electric car, price obviously IS an excuse.

            Like a lot of people, I expect to be driving my current car for many years. No matter how much I'd like to have a hybrid or an electric, it's just impossible for me, and probably will be for quite a while.  

      •  Electric cars don't run on pixie dust... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JanL, enhydra lutris, Sunspots

        that the majority of US electric power comes from coal - you know that stuff that comes from mines that do nasty things like collapse and kill miners. As recently as what, last week...???

        And dump toxic stuff into rivers, and doesn't burn cleanly, etc...

        So in addition to that 25k car you need 25k in solar panels if you want clean hands.

        I hope that everyone is reading this gets a bike, walks, takes public transportation, and drives your car, gas powered or electric, only when you really need to.

        •  Bike, Walk & BART/Muni - you got it. (0+ / 0-)

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

          by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:15:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wrong (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          brillo, JanL

          According to virtually every study conducted on the subject, EVs are cleaner than gasoline cars even on our current grid.  For a vehicle in the same class, running on electricity, on our current grid, emits about 30% less CO2, more particulate matter, the same SOx, less NOx, and nearly eliminates VOCs and CO.  Furthermore, of the pollutants that are emitted, they're emitted at altitude in less population dense areas instead of ground level in population dense areas, dramatically reducing their impact.

          Coal only makes up half of our grid.  Oil makes up the overwhelming portion of what fuels your car.  And the competing liquid fuels aren't much better; most ethanol comes from corn, which is really awful.

          Each year, coal makes up less of our grid on average.  In 2008, for example, 42% of our new capacity added to the grid was wind.  Most of the rest was natural gas.  New coal plants are being canceled left and right.

          As for "biking and walking"?  What do you think powers you?  Humans are extremely inefficient converters of sunlight to kinetic energy with the intermediary steps of plants and animals.  The net conversion efficiency is in the sub-1% range.  And this ignores the water and environmental damage done in the process.  By all means, exercise as much as you need to to stay healthy, but don't convince yourself you're saving the world in the process.  Now, biking is more efficient than walking, and because of your extremely low cross section and your low speeds, you have an advantage there.  But an e-bike is even better.

          •  Oh, and I forgot to mention: (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            brillo, JanL

            While every year the grid gets cleaner, oil gets dirtier.  Oil keeps shifting more and more to syncrude (shale, tar sands, ultra-heavy, etc) and deepwater.

          •  walking vs car (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MD patriot

            "And this ignores the water and environmental damage done in the process"

            This very post is discussing an oil rig burning in the ocean.

            It doesn't matter how inefficiently I am converting sunlight to kinetic energy, I am converting SUNLIGHT to kinetic energy, not coal or oil. We can get into endless levels of debate about the amount of fossil fuels input into those calories, if I am fueling myself with Bluefin tuna from the Mediterranean, then the oil cost of fueling me is higher than if I pull a pear off the tree in my yard. That's why we should just slap a carbon tax onto those inputs to all those food sources can be properly priced. Then we'll really know.

            But if I drive a car (with a limited lifespan and all sorts of toxic crap in it) made in Japan, run from electricity from coal mined in West Virginia, am I really saving the planet? Remember your EV has to be produced and the oil fueled car has to be scrapped in order to gain your benefits.

            You'll never convince me that there is a net gain from driving 4 blocks to the store vs walking 4 blocks to the store. The net cost of walking is probably lower than opening the garage door.

            And lest you forget, another point in this post was that 11 people are missing in the gulf, far more died in West Virginia last week.

            •  Ah, but that's not true. (0+ / 0-)

              Where do you think the fertilizer for those farms come from?  Where do you think the energy to transport goods to and from the farms is?  How do you think the plants that make the fuel are powered?  How do you think the irrigation (if present) is powered?  You absolutely are using fossil energy to make those biofuels, on top of the abysmally low solar conversion efficiency.  In most cases (especially if you eat meat) more than you'd use just by using the electricity directly and taking advantage of your ~80% wall-to-wheels EV efficiency.

              And this is just a discussion of energy.  Never mind the twin disasters of what our massive scale of agriculture and livestock raising has done to habitat and water.  The Colorado River now scarcely even reaches the ocean, thanks almost entirely due to agriculture.  There are massive dead zones the world over, almost entirely due to agriculture.  We've dedicated 3/4ths of the planet's non-ice-covered landmass into raising crops and livestock.  It's of appalling scale.  Consuming more calories is not pro-environment.

              As for energy to produce a vehicle: the amount of energy consumed by any vehicle dwarfs the energy investment used to produce it, and most of modern vehicles are recycled.  And the most "toxic" thing in a typical car is the lead-acid battery, and modern EVs don't use lead-acid; they use nontoxic variants of li-ion (manganates and phosphates).

              You'll never convince me

              Good to see that you're so open-minded.

              that there is a net gain from driving 4 blocks to the store vs walking 4 blocks to the store. The net cost of walking is probably lower than opening the garage door.

              Really?  So increasing your share of the world's hundreds of thousands of dead zones is irrelevant to you?   Or your share of the tens of millions of square miles of land dedicated to agriculture and livestock?  And the corresponding share of the oceans being harvested beyond the breaking point?  And your share of rivers that no longer reach the sea and have suffered biodiversity crashes as a consequence?

              Your body converts ingested glucose to work with an efficiency of about 20%.  Biking makes use of work at a nearly 100% ratio; walking at a much lower ratio.  Anything other than glucose ingested takes energy, sometimes significant, to break down; some vegetables take nearly as much energy or more to digest as you get out of them.  20 minutes of cooking uses about half a kilowatt hour, enough to take an EV like the Leaf two miles.  Depending on the food, the energy involved in processing and packaging ranges from ~10% of the energy of the food to several times the energy of the food.  Transport and energy consumed at the farm, same numbers, once again.  Food waste, both at home, in the store, at the plants, and in the fields, accounts for more (including spoilage).  Meat takes many times as many calories in as come out (for beef, for example, it's about 8:1), so multiply all of your external energy inputs accordingly.  

              Using calories for motion is NOT an environmentally responsible thing.  It is good for your health, absolutely, but not for the environment.

              •  So what you are saying... (0+ / 0-)

                Is that to save the planet, the residents of my densely populated neighborhood should all start driving to the Whole Foods from the 2-10 blocks away they currently live from the store.

                What is the efficiency of a car that cannot move because the streets are gridlocked?

      •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gravedugger, Sunspots

        You've all got no excuses now!

         Don't live out west, do you?  100 mi. range doesn't cut it in CA.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

        by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:14:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really? You commute more than 100 miles to work? (0+ / 0-)

          Dear god, what kind of job do you have?

          •  Complete strawman - I nowhere mentioned (0+ / 0-)

            commuting.

            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

            by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:38:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  BREAKING: Not All Cars Meet All Needs! (0+ / 0-)

              Film at 11!

              -space unintentionally blank-

              by hillgiant on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:53:49 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Really? That's not what Rei said, he/she (0+ / 0-)

                said that the leaf meets all possible needs, there is no longer any excuse not to go replace your existing car with one.  Check it out HERE or just walk back up the thread.  

                There are huge numbers of people out there who will go somewhat green on some things if it is painless and easy enough, providing we don't alienate them with statements like that which is totally inappropriate for vast chunks of the country and the populace.

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 04:02:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

                  I did not say that the Leaf alone meets all possible needs.  I said that there are all sorts of offerings coming out, and that there is no excuse for why none of them would work.  There are plug-in hybrids.  There are genset trailers.  There's rapid charge.  And there's the ever-common "second vehicle".  If you have an "existing car", and you're somehow really worried about those rare long trips, and don't want to rent, and don't want to borrow, and don't want to do car sharing, then what's wrong with that?  Or do you not like the prospect of drastically reducing your daily energy costs, maintenance, and not having to go to gas stations in your daily life?

                  •  Thse weekly *RARE* long trips. ROF,L. (0+ / 0-)

                    And genset trailers.  Buy a plug in hybrid and plug it into a generator on a trailer you tow for that purpose?  That's reaching. Car sharing?  Hey, anybody else going to my brother's tonight?  What? What are you talking about?

                    Or do you not like the prospect of drastically reducing your daily energy costs, maintenance, and not having to go to gas stations in your daily life?

                    I'd like nothing better, but I'd need a vehicle I could use in my daily life, which doesn't include dormitories and staying within 20 miles of home.

                    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                    by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 05:16:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Are you even paying attention? (0+ / 0-)

                      Buy a plug in hybrid and plug it into a generator on a trailer you tow for that purpose?

                      It's an either-or situation, not a both-and situation.  Weekly long trips?  What are you, a trucker, taking 100+ mile trips every week?  Far from the average American.   What, exactly, is your driving like?

                      Car sharing?  Hey, anybody else going to my brother's tonight?

                      Since you've clearly never heard of this, let me educate you.  There are commercial car-sharing services (like ZipCar) and private car co-ops.  These are groups that have cars in easy-to-get-to places in cities, big and small (my city of 50k has a car co-op).  If you're going on a long trip, you make use of one of these cars.  It's much cheaper than car ownership, and many users of such services make use of them to live without having to own a car at all.

                      I'd like nothing better, but I'd need a vehicle I could use in my daily life, which doesn't include dormitories and staying within 20 miles of home.

                      20 miles?  Wow, the miraculous shrinking range here!  No, 100 miles.  Unless you're planning to spend no time at your destination, wherein, 50 miles.  Except that there are rapid charge stations being built in most major cities, which means an 80% charge in half an hour (and in the future, even shorter).   And unless you use either a range-extending trailer or a plug-in hybrid, which boosts your range to unlimited.

                      What do you mean by "include dormitories"?  While apartment-dwellers without power outlets are not ideal early adopters (have you ever actually checked for power outlets or asked your landlord about installing them if there aren't any?), ask Chelsea Sexton what it's like living in an apartment with an electric vehicle and no power.  She simply asked her employer to let her charge while at work; in my experience, about 80% of employers say yes.  

                      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                        Since you've clearly never heard of this, let me educate you.  There are commercial car-sharing services (like ZipCar) and private car co-ops.

                         You seem to think that California is Boston. My brother's place is not that urban and is nowhere near the town I live in.  This isn't catch a zip car at a BART station and drive it across town. Same problem with co-ops.

                        The 20 miles was aimed at your seeming perspective on reality, upon which your analyses seem to be based.  I don't believe that those rapid charge stations exist in most places and certainly not in the mountains, deserts, rural areas, etc.  The Leaf, the car under discussion, isn't a hybrid.  A range extending trailer is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.  Why not simply wait until they have a vehicle that can do the job.  Drive 75 to 80 miles (reduced range because of towing) pull off the road, fire up the generator, charge for an hour or two, drive to a gas station to get gas for the generator, drive 60 more miles (you wasted 10 getting to a station) - this is simply madness.

                        While apartment-dwellers without power outlets are not ideal early adopters (have you ever actually checked for power outlets or asked your landlord about installing them if there aren't any?), ask Chelsea Sexton what it's like living in an apartment with an electric vehicle and no power.  She simply asked her employer to let her charge while at work; in my experience, about 80% of employers say yes.  

                        I have no landlord, I am a homeowner - I am an adult.  Your experience is inconceivable.  A company has a floor in an office building,it hires 80 people, has no parking yet the boss will let everybody charge?  How?  Another place is a Deli, 4 employees - let's them run power cords across the sidewalk?  Be serious. I don't know where and how you live, but it is sounding more and more surreal every minute.

                        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                        by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 10:15:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Same problem with co-ops? (0+ / 0-)

                          As I mentioned, my little midwest town of 50k has a car co-op.  It takes like four people to justify a car co-op.

                          I don't believe that those rapid charge stations exist in most places and certainly not in the mountains, deserts, rural areas, etc.

                          There are very few at all right now, but they're being built in each area where the Leaf is being sold, with the plan to have a several per major city and one or two in strategically located smaller cities in every region it's rolled out.

                          The Leaf, the car under discussion, isn't a hybrid.  A range extending trailer is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.  Why not simply wait until they have a vehicle that can do the job.  Drive 75 to 80 miles (reduced range because of towing) pull off the road, fire up the generator, charge for an hour or two, drive to a gas station to get gas for the generator, drive 60 more miles (you wasted 10 getting to a station) - this is simply madness.

                          Once again, how about stopping ranting about a topic until you actually learn what the heck you're talking about?  That's not at all how range extending trailers work.  Range-extending trailers run while the vehicle is moving.  They turn an EV into a PHEV.  It's an EV when you don't want the range extender and a PHEV when you do.  When there's enough EVs on the road, you'll be able to rent or exchange them like Uhaul trailers or propane tanks; they're trivially easy to share.  

                          I have no landlord, I am a homeowner - I am an adult.

                          1. Then why are you talking about dormatories?
                          1. Wow, how freaking insulting to the half of Americans who can't afford a house can you get?  Anyone who doesn't have a house is an adult?  Jesus christ, go back to Free Republic.

                          A company has a floor in an office building,it hires 80 people, has no parking yet the boss will let everybody charge?

                          Most lots in which people park, no matter what type of business they work for, have at least some spaces adjacent to areas with power.  

                          Be serious. I don't know where and how you live, but it is sounding more and more surreal every minute.

                          I've lived in Long Beach, the Houston area, the Beaumont area, Terre Haute, Cedar Rapids, and Iowa City.  What's "surreal" is a person who's never actually bothered to look for exterior power outlets telling me that they don't exist, who's never known anyone who's asked their employer whether they can charge telling me that they can't, and who doesn't even know how a range extender works telling me that they're ridiculous.  And throwing in an insult to the poor to boot.

                          •  No insult to the poor, that's projection (0+ / 0-)

                            on your part or something.  I was not implying that only non-adults are renters, just getting all the facts out there, since you seem to have a lot of bizarre views about who I am.  

                            I live out here and I happen to know the facts.

                            As I mentioned, my little midwest town of 50k has a car co-op.  It takes like four people to justify a car co-op.

                            Pointless with respect to this discussion. Nobody's getting into a coop unless they think it will have substantial utility.  If they are all mostly homebodys and take turns driving one to Walmart and another to ShopKo and yet another to HiVee, that works.  Friday comes and one wants to go to Tahoe, and another wants to go to Monterey, and the guy working 4-10's has already taken it to go to Reno on
                            Thursday, etc.  Not relevant.

                            charging stations

                            There are very few at all right now,

                            Yep, making the Leaf completely impractical.

                            with the plan to have a several per major city and one or two in strategically located smaller cities in every region it's rolled out.

                            In other wrods, maybe eventually practical if you plan only to drive in the city and only selected routes, useless to the rest of us.

                            Range-extending trailers run while the vehicle is moving

                            Ah, tow a trailer, reducing range, top speed, acceleration and, essentially, running on gasoline or propane, and stopping to refill and having all the headaches of a gasoline powered car plus the inability to tow a utility trailer, ultralight camp trailer, or to use rear mounted bike racks and such.  Brilliant. Driving everywhere with a tow doesn't really appeal to me, and I doubt to many others, either.  I know, average commute doesn't require one, not relevant.

                            Most lots in which people park, no matter what type of business they work for, have at least some spaces adjacent to areas with power.  

                            In Iowa City in your opinion  Totally false where I live, in the local business district, and everywhere I've ever worked since maybe 1968.  Picture this - centered in a U shaped array of 5 massive 7 story buildings, no less than 50 feet from any building wall, is a large swath of asphalt with stripes on it.  No outlets on any walls and no hope whatsoever that the building management company that leases to the tenants will permit any idiot to create a grossly negligent tripping hazard and guaranteed lawsuit by running a 200' power cord from a ground floor office out past the elevators, past the door and into the lot.  Also picture this, Fred Smith goes to the local parking structure of which he is a monthly tenant, inserts his card, goes to the one spot where there is power for parking structure company use and plugs in.  When he returns, his card no longer lets him out and he is arrested for theft, misappropriation and a lot of other stuff.  He is eventually cut loose after reimbursing the parking company for the cost of the power and of every direct and indirect cost of having him busted, paying a small fine, losing his parking priveleges and becoming lifetime persona non grata at all ofthe 15 parking facilities run by that company.

                            Curbside power outlets, no stealing, no relying upon some phantom imaginary on site goodnatured boss to hold a lottery among the employees for the daily right to create a tripping hazard, not simply some "exterior power outlet", but one that somebody can legally and safely use, please.  Oh, and In CA, not in imaginary Iowa.

                            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                            by enhydra lutris on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 04:25:54 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  Then what, exactly, is your issue? (0+ / 0-)

              If the car meets your everyday needs, then what's the problem?  Or do you drive a cargo van around everywhere because every so often you might need all of that room?  Just like people don't (usually) drive cargo vans everywhere they go because they don't usually need all that space and instead borrow or rent them as needed (or have a cargo-hauler as a second vehicle), why shouldn't the same logic be applied to range?  Especially when it gets you a much lower per-mile rate.

              •  What is *my* problem? Bwahahahahaha (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                worldlotus

                Wherever you live it is pretty obvious that the expectations are to stay home whenever not at work. Your problem is that you need to get out and see some of the rest of the planet.  Here, many of us have lives (you can google it) and visit friends and family in the evenings and on weekends and days off, go on picnics, go camping, go to the ocean or the mountains or the desert, or simply to a good birding spot.  In fact many of us volunteer to do things  like nature surveys, our spare time as well.  

                Now 100 miles round trip is only 40 miles one way if one leaves a small margin of safety for running at night with lights on, using the wipers, etc., maybe 45 miles.  [Until there are power outlets every 25 feet along streets and in parking structures and such, a 100 mile range is the round-trip range] A great many people have greater commutes than that, I don't because I'm no longer employed.  Many even have much greater commutes than that.  Except for neighbors, not that many of our friends and acquaintances are within 50 miles, nor are a lot of the entertainment and recreational venues.

                You see 45 miles out and back, or 3-30 mile legs goes pretty much nowhere in CA, NV, AZ, UT, etc.  CA is 770 miles long and 250 wide.  From Berkeley to LA in the Leaf will take 4 to 5 days.  This is a vehicle designed for those who refuse to use public transit, but never really go anywhere, those living in Natick and working in Boston, or somesuch.

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 03:52:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ignoring the sarcasm (0+ / 0-)

                  The average person works a mere 16 miles away from where they live.  Statistically, trips of over 100 miles are things that happen just a few times per year for the average American.  Some Americans more, some Americans less.

                  Until there are power outlets every 25 feet along streets and in parking structures and such

                  Ever looked for them?  You'd be surprised how common they already are.  Every rest stop in Iowa has pairs of 20A outlets (which can be chained, either by current, or by voltage with a Quick220) all along its exterior.  You see, in the real world, everywhere people occupy, there's need for maintenance.  And modern maintenance requires electricity.  So people put power outlets all over the place.  

                  Here, just for your benefit, I went outside and checked the current building I'm in.  I've never checked it before, so I figured it'd be a good comparison.  Guess what?  In addition to there being half a million outlets inside that any good extension cord could reach, there was a pair of sockets right by the front door.

                  We're a powered nation.  There's power everywhere.

                  A great many people have greater commutes than that

                  Two problems with what you wrote.

                  1. No, they don't.  Statistically, the average commute distance is 16 miles.  Not 45, and certainly not more than 45.  
                  1. I know many people who've asked their boss about charging at work.  The success rate is about 80%.  And about half the time, the power is free (the rest of the time, their employer requires them to use a Kill-a-Watt meter).

                  You see 45 miles out and back,

                  Really?  You go places 45 miles away (in CA traffic, an often hour and a half) and then immediately turn around an drive back?  No.  When people go places that far away, they tend to stay for hours.  And since there's power basically everywhere, that means you have a charge.

                  Once again, I'll reiterate: according to driving statistics, long trips are not common for the average American.

                  Now, let me ask you two questions:

                  1. Do you drive a cargo van everywhere you go?
                  1. What do you do when you need something that's too big for your commuter vehicle, then?
                  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                    Two problems with what you wrote.

                      1. No, they don't.  Statistically, the average commute distance is 16 miles.  Not 45, and certainly not more than 45.  

                    You need to take a stat course.  What is the average of 120, 62 and 3?  Would that be anywhere close to 60 in your universe?    

                    Really?  You go places 45 miles away (in CA traffic, an often hour and a half) and then immediately turn around an drive back?  No.  When people go places that far away, they tend to stay for hours.  And since there's power basically everywhere, that means you have a charge.

                     There isn't power everywhere and you don't have access to most of what is.  You really don't know anything about the real world, do you.  Berkeley to Santa Cruz is 78 miles, you stay maybe 1/2 day, part of it at beaches and parks (no power) and part of it at a friend's house and much of it driving around (no power) and then head home, but you can't.  Berkeley to Dry Creek Road, 74 miles, you stay nowhere over 45 minutes hit six or 7 stops, no power available to yu, and come back home - extremely common for Bay Area Folks to make similar runs.  You go camping, except you can't Yosemite, nope, Tahoe, nope, anywhere in the Sierras or desert, nope. Tomales Bay, can't get back, Bodega Bay, Can't get back, Mendocino, can't get there.  Until you've spent a year or two west of the rockies, don't presume to speak on vehicular needs out here.  Sure, we have the SOV commuters, many of whom to over 50 miles one way and have no plug in, but plenty of folk use public transit and such for all that local crap and use the car to enjoy the outdoors.  We can do that here, year round, but none of it is downtown or next door.

                    Since yoyu haven't read anything in my prior messages, I'll assume you didn't read this one eaither and simply point out that your cargo van strawman is a strawman, like most of the other stuff you've spouted, the rest being misunderstood The average commuter drives 16 miles, hence there cannot be many who drive more - ROF,L.

                    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                    by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 05:35:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Range (0+ / 0-)

                      You need to take a stat course.  What is the average of 120, 62 and 3?  Would that be anywhere close to 60 in your universe?

                      What are you talking about?  If the US average is 16 miles, then Very Few People Are 45+ Miles.  Here's a stat lesson for you: what is the maximum  number of people with a range of over 45 miles that is physically possible while having the average be 16 miles?  Answer: 36%.  And that would be if everyone else's range was zero miles.  In the real world, just over 1% of Americans "stretch commute" (defined as a commute of over 50 miles).  And only 1 in 1000 commute more than 100 miles each way.

                      There isn't power everywhere and you don't have access to most of what is

                      There's power almost everywhere.  You've just never looked.

                      Berkeley to Santa Cruz is 78 miles, you stay maybe 1/2 day, part of it at beaches and parks (no power) and part of it at a friend's house and much of it driving around (no power) and then head home, but you can't.

                      Your friend lives without power?  Dear god, who is your friend, Ted Kazinski?

                      No power at the beaches and parks of Santa Cruz?  Huh -- better tell that to Santa Cruz Harbor.  Or Soquel and Front Garage.  Or Toyota of Santa Cruz (a couple blocks from the ocean).  Or UC Santa Cruz (charger right by the park).  Or New Brighton State Beach.  Or the three different RV parks at Seaside Cliff State Beach.  Need I keep going?  Heck, practically any restaurant will let you charge if you order something.

                      Berkeley to Dry Creek Road, 74 miles, you stay nowhere over 45 minutes hit six or 7 stops, no power available to yu, and come back home - extremely common for Bay Area Folks to make similar runs

                      Are you kidding?  There's like 30 registered places to charge and/or RV parks along that route.

                      Want me to go into your other routes?  And again, the average multi-hundred mile trip is extremely rare.  You can pretend otherwise, but driving statistics belie that.  And there's half a dozen different approaches for such trips.

                      Hey, what do you do when you need to pick up a dryer?  What do you do when you need to pick up a washer?  What do you do when you need to pick up plywood?  What do you do when you need to help a friend move?  What do you do when you need to pick up a furnace?  Or an air conditioner?  Or a large piece of furnature?  

                      See what it's like?  An obsession over rare long-range trips is no more reasonable than an obsession over rare large-object moving events.

                      Until you've spent a year or two west of the rockies, don't presume to speak on vehicular needs out here

                      I was born in California and go there all the time on business.  And honestly, I find it hilarious to hear people in population dense areas talking about how they're so much more in need of long-distance trips than we in low-population density areas.  I have to drive half an hour to get to an airport that only flies to four cities.  So hold your holier-than-thou attitude, please.

                      I'll assume you didn't read this one eaither and simply point out that your cargo van strawman is a strawman, like most of the other stuff you've spouted,

                      Not in the least.  It's an analogy, and analogies are perfectly fair.  Explain why it's fair game to bring up range but unfair to bring up cargo capacity.  You make sacrifices in cargo capacity in order to save energy and operating costs, and willfully rent for those few times per year where you need it.  Yet you completely refuse to even consider it when it comes to range and those few times per year you need longer range.

                      The average commuter drives 16 miles, hence there cannot be many who drive more - ROF,L.

                      I find it hilarious that you "ROFL" when the reality is that the situation you describe affects only 1% of the population (see earlier link).  You know nothing about driving statistics.

                      •  You are simply insane on this topic. How long (0+ / 0-)

                        does it take to charge the damn thing and what makes you think that random homeowners and shopkeepers and restauranteurs are going to let every tom dick and harry park at their place for 1/2 a day charging up?

                        Do You have a clue what 36% of the US population is?  Do you have a clue what 10% of the US population is?  How about 25% of the Los Angeles basin population.  There are a grat number of people with commutes exceeding 45 miles one way, that is a fact, your "statistic" has nothing to do with that fact.

                        Range is relevant. Not everybody is in school.  Even 5 day a week employees, at least almost all of those I've known, get out and do things Friday nights and weekends.  A lot of those things on weekends are pretty long range.  If somebody goes to Sonoma to go wine tasting, there simply isn't any reasonable way to recharge to return.  You are simply crazy if you think that RV parks just let people drive up and charge and you still forget that it takes hours, turning a half day trip into an all day trip sitting in your car in some RV park.

                        The Santa Cruz example, which you purposely misunderstood and misrepresented is a good example.  You have absolutely no knowledge of reality so you twist crap.  Sure there may be some power on campus, if they let anybody and everybody use it, but I don't go there to go to the campus, and the beaches and parks I do go to don't have power - got it? So what if the harbor does, I don't go there. Maybe there are places I could go to that do, but that is not the point, the places I choose to go to, because I like them, don't have power.  How many CA state parks and state beaches have power that they will let people use for hours at a time to recharge their car?  What makes you falsely say that any restaurant will let you run a cord across the sidewalk, risking their insurance coverage, if you buy something?  You know that you couldn't possibly know that for a fact.

                        Yet you completely refuse to even consider it when it comes to range and those few times per year you need longer range.

                        I already, in the top line of a prior message, indicated that such treeps are weekly, and sometimes more.  this is more strawman crap.  You know absolutely nothing about the driving wnats and needs of most of the rest of the world, yet you pontificate about it any way.  What is this stupidity, buy a car that is only good for going to the store that you normally bicycle to, and they rent a car every weekend as well as every other time you need to travel over 100 miles in one day, be it a long trip or multiple sort ones.  Plan your whole life so you can arrange to have a rental reserved for all such days?

                        The simple fact is that the Leaf is only right for some people, and it isn't right for a great any others becasue of its tiny range.  The simply fact is that you are coming up with bizarre and outrageous ideas to try to get around the simply fact that 100 miles is nothing in much of the west, totally inadequate.  I can take you to a gret many stretches of road where there is absolutely no electricity for over 200 miles, none, not for all the money in the world.

                        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                        by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 09:53:50 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Should you know, actually learn about a topic (0+ / 0-)

                          before getting self righteous about it?  Your posts are jam-packed full of misconceptions and misunderstandings.  Now you're asking how long it takes to charge?  Seriously, you've been having this whole debate and you don't even know that?

                          How long does it take to charge the damn thing and what makes you think that random homeowners and shopkeepers and restauranteurs are going to let every tom dick and harry park at their place for 1/2 a day charging up?

                          First off, who said homeowners?  Actually, some homeowners do list their homes as charging locations, but I never brought that up.  What makes me think that businesses will offer themselves up as charging stations?  The fact that businesses do offer themselves up for charging.  In the '90s, many times more businesses installed multi-thousand dollar inductive charging stations than there were EVs on the road!  I about a dozens of people with EVs, and none of them have ever been turned down on a request to charge at a location.  Most businesses are more than happy to let you charge there once they learn how little it costs -- it brings them business and earns brand loyalty.  

                          As for how long it takes to charge, that depends on the vehicle and power source.  For something like the Leaf, you'll get:

                          Level 3 rapid charger: ~160 miles range per hour charging
                          Level 2 J1772 charger, max current: ~90 miles range per hour charging (if your onboard is good enough)
                          50A RV socket (same socket as an oven uses), 50A sustained: ~55 miles range per hour charging
                          50A RV socket (like above), 42A sustained: ~45 miles range per hour charging
                          30A dryer socket (also used for tons of types of industrial and maintenance eq), 30A sustained: ~35 miles range per hour charging
                          30A dryer socket, 24A sustained: ~25 miles range per hour charging
                          20A 120V wall sockets, 2x chained with a Quick220 at 16A: ~18 miles range per hour charging
                          15A 120V wall sockets, 2x chained with a Quick220 at 12.5A: ~14 miles range per hour charging
                          20A 120V wall socket at 16A: ~9 miles range per hour charging
                          15A 120V wall socket at 12.5A: ~7 miles range per hour charging

                          So, for your hypothetical "day at the beach" example, you could get a full charge on a single 20A at 16A.  Every last rest stop in Iowa has about a dozen pairs of exterior 20A sockets (which can be chained).  For seeing a movie or shopping at a mall (~2.5h), an RV or range socket would get you a full charge, even if derated.  A simple pair of external sockets (they usually come in pairs) would add an extra 45 miles range with a Quick220.

                          Note that this is before charging stations become common.  There are tens of thousands of charging stations in the works right now being focused on the early markets, and more coming later for the later markets.

                          Do You have a clue what 36% of the US population is?

                          1. Yes -- it's a hypothetical number that would only be the right answer if everyone else's commute was zero miles.
                          1. It's a minority of people, while there's no way we could supply the majority of people EVs in any reasonable length of time even if we wanted to.

                          Do you have a clue what 10% of the US population is

                          Yes, way more than people who have 45 mile commutes.

                          How about 25% of the Los Angeles basin population.  

                          According to the census, LA's commute time is above average (29 minutes) but distance is average (16 miles).  So once again, your numbers are absurd.

                          Range is relevant.

                          So is cargo space.  And yet -- somehow, despite all odds -- we manage with sedans.  

                          Seriously, please stop dodging this.  It's a perfectly reasonable point.  People need cargo space every so often, about as often as they need long range.  But they still drive sedans.  Because people have long ago logically decided that a rare inconvenience is worth it to have operating costs 1/3rd as much as driving a cargo van everywhere.  And sedans still have to stop by gas stations!

                          Not everybody is in school.

                          You're the one who brought up dormatories.  I own my own company; how about you?

                          A lot of those things on weekends are pretty long range.

                          Statistically, no.  Pull up all the anecdotes you want.  But statistically, no.

                          You are simply crazy if you think that RV parks just let people drive up and charge

                          They do, if you pay.

                          sitting in your car in some RV park

                          Who said "sitting in your car"?  For example, you were talking about beaches in Santa Cruz before -- you know that there are four RV parks on the beach in Santa Cruz?

                          You have absolutely no knowledge of reality so you twist crap.  Sure there may be some power on campus, if they let anybody and everybody use it, but I don't go there to go to the campus, and the beaches and parks I do go to don't have power - got it? So what if the harbor does, I don't go there.

                          Then for God's sake, tell me where you go!  I'm not a mind reader.  You wanted power on beaches and parks, so I named half a dozen sites.  And this is before the big charger construction boom gets underway this summer.  If you want a specific location, get specific.  I'm tired of your mind games.

                          How many CA state parks and state beaches have power that they will let people use for hours at a time to recharge their car?

                          I don't live in CA, but I can tell you that I've talked to the Iowa DOT, and they have no restrictions on using power at the rest areas.  I haven't asked about parks, but I imagine it's similar.

                          What makes you falsely say that any restaurant will let you run a cord across the sidewalk, risking their insurance coverage, if you buy something?  You know that you couldn't possibly know that for a fact.

                          First off, it's not cute how you removed the word "practically" before the word "any".  It's a lot easier to argue against people if you change their statements around, isn't it?

                          Secondly, that comes from the experience of the dozen or so people with EVs I know, not one of whom has ever been turned down.  Now, where does your experience of restaurants not allowing it come from?  Your preaching from a pulpit of ignorance gets really tiring.

                          I already, in the top line of a prior message, indicated that such treeps are weekly, and sometimes more.

                          You weekly drive to Santa Cruz?  Really?  Holy-1-percenter, Batman!

                          You know absolutely nothing about the driving wnats and needs of most of the rest of the world

                          Ha!  I'm the one quoting referenced statistics here.  That's rich.

                          buy a car that is only good for going to the store that you normally bicycle to

                          Wow, now the range of the Leaf in your mind is down to 5 miles or so!  

                          Coming up, in enhydra lutris's next post: "EVs only go five feet before they run out of charge!"

                          Once again, I'll note that you refused to address the issue that most people willfully and readily sacrifice cargo space for lower operating costs.  Which is a direct mirror of the range issue.

                          •  As usual,m you are talking absolute nonsense and (0+ / 0-)

                            making crap up as you go.  Iowa isn't CA.  Why do you keep babbling about what Iowa has.  CA rest stops have no curbside electric, damn little electric for the maintenance guys and are, at this time, mostly closed and irrelevant.

                            Now, how does a day at the beach work in your world.  You have 20A sand?  You forget to allow for the fact that those sockets aren't there.

                            I don't live in CA, but I can tell you that I've talked to the Iowa DOT, and they have no restrictions on using power at the rest areas.  I haven't asked about parks, but I imagine it's similar..

                            Precisely, and you can't imagine anything being any different, but it is and you are making crap up every time you say what will or would happen here.  In one message you made some crack about out here versus back there where things really are far apart.  What you got back there as far apart as San Francisco and San Diego?  You give yourself away when you act like 100 miles is some big freaking distance and babble about truck drivers.  I know guys who were route drivers in IA and MN, and even there 100 won't cut it, not if you actually wish to get paid.  100 is no mileage.  

                            When we go to Sta Cruz, for example, we go over th half-moon bay and then down the coast to Aptos, pick up some friends (they have a 2 seater, so we drive) hit maybe manresa or sunset state beach, maybe forest of nicene marks, maybe go wander around the sta cruz mtns, go hit some wine bars and tasting rooms and either head home or grab a quick dinner and then head home.  It is a drop over 100 miles to our friends house in Aptios, so the trip is completely impossible, period. We do this several times per year.  Lots of people go to Sta cruz monthly or more often, it is sort of a playground for bay area types.  50 miles one way, is absolutely nothing, we routinely go further than that to picnic or go birding or meet friends for lunch.
                            As I said in one of my first responses, it is pretty obvious that you don't live out here.
                            Yosemite, about 2 to 3 times per year, about 140 miles one way, stay a few days and come back.  Wine country about every month to six weeks roughly 200 mile circuit.  Tahoe at least once.  Mendocino Fort Brag, Ukiah circuit over 100 up, 100 or more circuit, over 100 back.  Forestville then to the coast to Pt Reyes then to Petaluma. Meet LA friends in Morro Bay, SLO, Los Olivos, at least once.  Way over 100 one way.  At least one trip to ABDSP, 550 miles one way, about 3 days down, about 3 days back, and at least 2 to 3 100 mile days sightseing and nature watching while we're there.  At least one trip up to Quincy/ Portola/Marysville/etc. area, well over 100 miles, most often over 200, stay a few days, return.  That is a small sampling, and we aren't that unusual.  We have a gob of friends all over the state that behave similarly, and, like us, pretty much always have, and we're always running into similar folks wherever we wind up.  

                            Yes, there are people who do the work 5 8 hour days and then stay home except to run out to the equivalent of Shopko or HyVee. but there are also people who work 4-10s to maximize their time traveling.  There are tons of people who go to the mountains to ski every damn weekend that there is snow up there.  My neighbor drives about 45-50 miles to his golf club and then runs errands on the way back on Saturdays.  The people west of the rockies who want to get out into nature routinely drive hundreds of miles to do so, and contrary to Iowa national standards aren't going to be getting access to electricity while they're doing it unless they go out of their way to find rv parks, and in many places, that isn't possible.  

                            Seriously, please stop dodging this.  It's a perfectly reasonable point.  People need cargo space every so often, about as often as they need long range.  But they still drive sedans.  Because people have long ago logically decided that a rare inconvenience is worth it to have operating costs 1/3rd as mu

                            I'm not dodging it, I'm saying that it is blisteringly irrelevant.  Perhaps in Iowa, people go over 50 miles one way as rarely as they need a cargo van, but it ain't the case out here.  I haven't needed a cargo van in 20 years and don't know too many people who have.

                            According to the census, LA's commute time is above average (29 minutes) but distance is average (16 miles).  So once again, your numbers are absurd.

                            No, but your misunderstanding of what an average is is.  Plus, unlike your imaginary CA residents, the real folk get out on weekends and even on evenings.  San Diego to Pasadena to see the newest exhibit at the Huntington, for example, about 130 miles one way, nobody thinks a thing of it or going even further to catch some hot band  or performer, just like nobody really thinks overmuch of running from the Bay Area to Fresno or Tahoe and even LA once in a while for a special event.

                            Businesses allowing charging?  Nah, you have absolutely no facts relative to CA .  I'm willing to bet 50 bux that I can go door to door in the downtown Oakland or SF or San Diego business district and ask if I can run a power cable from somewhere in their establishment, across the floor, out the front door, across the sidewalk and partway down the block to my car for a couple or 3 hours and get turned down every single time.

                            Once again, I'll note that you refused to address the issue that most people willfully and readily sacrifice cargo space for lower operating costs.  Which is a direct mirror of the range issue.

                            Completely irrelevant and not remotely similar.  Also completely ignores popularity of pick ups, vans and van conversions, mini vans and SUVs.

                            You are arguing tha 100 miles is ample range for anybody because most people don't drive a cargo van - complete non sequitur.  You are basing this all on some imaginary Iowa and applying it to CA.  I know people in Des Moines who routinely go to Mason City, Guttenberg and up into southern MN as far as Faribault and Owatonna, yet you claim it doesn't happen out west, where, for example people regularly go to Tahoe and Reno from places like San Jose and all you have to back it up is some average one way commute data per the US census.  Do you want to guess how many times I've driven to IA?  One friend drives from Fresno both to FL and WI every year and well as all over CA as often as he can get out of the house.  People aren't all stay at homes who never go out of their neighborhood except to Walmart and work, not even in IA, and certainly not in CA, NV, AZ, NM, TX, OR, WA and UT.

                            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                            by enhydra lutris on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 02:58:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  stI'm so used to people (0+ / 0-)

                    misunderstanding what an average is from the other viewpoint that I maade my example upside-down for this conversation - try 100, 3,3,2,1,1; average is 18, nonetheless, one number is well over 50.  Average for metropolitan Boston is not average for greater Los Angeles, Average for US isn't average for CA or NV.

                    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                    by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 06:20:56 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And? (0+ / 0-)

                      I know damn well what an average is like.  That doesn't change the fact that  1 in 1,000 Americans commute 100 miles or more to work.  You're living in this imaginary world where a sizeable fraction of people spend their entire day either working or commuting to and from work.

                      Seriously, get over yourself and educate yourself on a topic before you deign to lecture people about it.

                      •  You are the one that needs a bit of (0+ / 0-)

                        education and perspective, especially since 100 mile range, as I've said before, means 45 mile one-way commute.  Now, give me your citation for that little 1 in 1,000 "fact", then go find one for how many do 45.  The last job I worked at, over half of the team I was on had a commute in excess of 45 miles.

                        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                        by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 09:57:23 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I already linked it. (0+ / 0-)

                          Need me to link it again?  Here you go.  Go ahead and let me know how many more times I need to link it for you so I can get that out of the way.  The number for over 50 miles is just under 1 in 100 Americans (3.3 million).

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            SOURCE: National Household Travel Survey, 2001-2002.

                            National Household Travel Survey
                            "Stretch Commute" Quick Facts

                            "Stretch Commute" trips are at least 50 miles one way.

                            Commuting in America

                               * In a year, 3.3 million Americans "stretch-commute"
                               * More than one out of 10 (13 percent) long-distance trips are for commuting
                               * Just over one out of five (22 percent) long distance trips between 50 and 99 miles are for commuting

                             Meaning that 11% of them are round trip commutes of 100 to 198 miles.  Only 13% of long distance trips are for commuting, making it somewhat massively irrelevant as to actual traveling, but, what the hey, it argues for short trips if you ignore the fact that 90% of trips aren't included at all.

                            How Far We Travel When Stretch Commuting

                               * About three out of five (62 percent) stretch commutes are 50-74 miles

                            100-148 round trip
                             

                            * One out of five (19 percent) stretch commutes are 75-99 miles

                            150-198 round trip
                               

                            * Less than one in 10 (7 percent) stretch commutes are 100-124 miles

                            200-248 round trip, not 100 - tsk, tsk.  You don't need to fudge this if you truly believe in a recharger on every corner and all that twaddle.
                               

                            * More than one out of 20 (6 percent) stretch commutes are 125-199 miles
                               * More than one out of 20 (6 percent) of stretch commutes are 200+ miles

                            24 out of 25 (96 percent) stretch commutes are done by personal vehicle.

                            What is NHTS?
                            The 2001-2002 National Household Travel Survey (NHTS) is a national survey of daily and long-distance travel. The survey includes demographic characteristics of households, people, vehicles, and detailed information on daily and longer-distance travel for all purposes by all modes.

                            Like, bus, subway, bike, walk, might have an impact on average, but, nah not in IA at any rate.

                            There are approximately a total of 66,000 households in the final 2001-2002 NHTS dataset. About 26,000 households are in the national sample, while the remaining 40,000 households are from nine add-on areas.

                            What is an Add-On?
                            Since the NHTS is a national survey, it collects data from a nationally representative sample of households to derive statistically reliably travel estimates at the national level. Sample data in the NHTS are not adequate to provide statewide, or area-specific estimates. For certain states and local jurisdictions interested in developing travel estimates for their specific areas, additional household interviews were conducted to enlarge their sample size. The jurisdictions that purchased these additional samples are referred to as the "add-on" areas. In the 2001-2002 NHTS, there are nine add-on areas:

                              1. Baltimore MPO, Maryland
                              2. Des Moines MPO , Iowa
                              3. Edmonson, Carter, Pulaski, and Scott Counties, Kentucky
                              4. Lancaster MPO, Pennsylvania
                              5. Oahu MPO, Hawaii
                              6. State of Hawaii, except Oahu
                              7. State of New York
                              8. State of Texas
                              9. State of Wisconsin

                            Where's L.A.?  Where's CA?

                            You know, I just noticed that this is massively off topic as well as totally fruitless, so meditate on why most cars get 300-400 miles per tank and lemme know when they have charging stations covering CA in a grid such that no two are over 50 miles apart and all can handle 10 to twenty vehicles simultaneously.

                            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                            by enhydra lutris on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 05:00:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

          •  I, for one, have clients. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            worldlotus

            My 'commute' is mostly under 25 miles a day.

            Except for the fairly often jobs that are 250 miles each way to somewhat remote places...And the fact that I occasionally like to get out of the city.

            In the midwest and northern CA, you might walk out the back door to your job...But the weekly (or more) drive to the big supermarket is 40 miles or more each way. Given how far it is, you buy a lot, and you combine that 'errand' with a stop by TSCO, and maybe you bring the sick dog into the vet, and grab a few bags of fertilizer...Suddenly, the electric car has 600 pounds of cargo, and needs to go another 40 miles.

            In California, driving from Richmond to San Jose and back is over 100 miles round-trip. Sucks having to drop someone off at the airport.

            Costa Mesa to Burbank is a 100 miles round trip. A lot of people working in the film industry have probably made that drive.

            Covelo to Ukiah is a rather twisty 60 miles. Each way. At least a hundred people make that drive once a week. Be glad they do, because it allows for the creation of many, many tons of pot.

            I guess the point is that electric cars are great in suburbia...Not so much outside of that. With the destruction of the middle class came the destruction of jobs that had long-term stability.

            I don't know week-to-week where I will be working. If I had a salaried position 20 miles from home, I would buy an electric car. No question.

            A re-built middle class would make for a better electric car market.

            It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

            by Gravedugger on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:44:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  First, you overplay the impact of payload. (0+ / 0-)

              Electric vehicles are no less capable of carrying big payloads than gasoline vehicles are.  Remember, diesel locomotives are really electric locomotives with onboard generators.  The Leaf is, by all standards, a normal sedan in terms of capabilities, except being shorter range, slightly higher acceleration than average, and of course, running on electricity.  

              Yes, adding more payload will impact range, but not that much.  Highway range is dominated by aerodynamics, and the car starts out at 3k lbs, so....

              May I ask how many vehicles you have, and whether you currently use your cargo hauler as a daily commuter?  As well as how frequent your long trips are?  Your driving habits are not typical, certainly, but something like a Long Ranger may be perfect for you.  Take it when you need it, leave it when you don't, lease it, borrow it, rent it, own it, whatever you want.  Cheap, efficient, and ideal for those who want the more than occasional long trip but don't have a second car.

              By the time the Leaf hits the streets, every major California city should have at least one Level 3 (rapid charger).  So just in case none of the places you stop have any charging offered (it became trendy in the '90s to offer free charging as a loss leader for the green cred and to get people to show up to shop, and that should be dramatically more this time around with the huge volume of EVs being produced), and you do that "many unexpected stops" route you proposed above, you can always just stop by the rapid charger.  And you don't need a full charge.

              I guess the point is that electric cars are great in suburbia...Not so much outside of that.

              The "point" is that very few trips taken by the average American are over 100 miles, and that can be completely invalidated by any of the following:

              1. Rapid charging
              1. Genset trailer
              1. PHEV instead of EV
              1. Car rental
              1. Car borrowing
              1. Car co-op
              1. Second car ownership (extremely common)

              And furthermore, the argument of "why should I take a hit to range when I don't have to" is easily rendered moot by pointing out that people already make sacrifices to gain efficiency -- for example, by not driving a a cargo van all over the place, you sacrifice your carrying capability, which you may need a couple times a year, but in turn you gain comfort and lower operating costs.  By driving an EV, you get even lower operating costs and the incredible convenience of never having to go to a gas station in your normal life.  Every day you start out with maximum range without even having to think about when the last time you "filled up" was.

    •  The only thing... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Hens Teeth
      ..Obama will re-think is:  "How can we make off-shore drilling platforms more safe?"

      Obama has bought into this right wing "drill baby, drill" fiasco, now he owns it.

      It'll be interesting to watch Republicans mock & ridicule the president after he points to this tragedy as to why off-shore drilling platforms should be made safer.  

       

      If a million people watch Olbermann, "nobody watches him." If 2 million watch Beck, he's "a national sensation spearheading a political movement."

      by wyvern on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:16:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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