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View Diary: Burning oil rig sinks in the Gulf of Mexico, 11 still missing [updated] (145 comments)

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  •  Really? You commute more than 100 miles to work? (0+ / 0-)

    Dear god, what kind of job do you have?

    •  Complete strawman - I nowhere mentioned (0+ / 0-)

      commuting.

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

      by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:38:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  BREAKING: Not All Cars Meet All Needs! (0+ / 0-)

        Film at 11!

        -space unintentionally blank-

        by hillgiant on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:53:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really? That's not what Rei said, he/she (0+ / 0-)

          said that the leaf meets all possible needs, there is no longer any excuse not to go replace your existing car with one.  Check it out HERE or just walk back up the thread.  

          There are huge numbers of people out there who will go somewhat green on some things if it is painless and easy enough, providing we don't alienate them with statements like that which is totally inappropriate for vast chunks of the country and the populace.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

          by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 04:02:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

            I did not say that the Leaf alone meets all possible needs.  I said that there are all sorts of offerings coming out, and that there is no excuse for why none of them would work.  There are plug-in hybrids.  There are genset trailers.  There's rapid charge.  And there's the ever-common "second vehicle".  If you have an "existing car", and you're somehow really worried about those rare long trips, and don't want to rent, and don't want to borrow, and don't want to do car sharing, then what's wrong with that?  Or do you not like the prospect of drastically reducing your daily energy costs, maintenance, and not having to go to gas stations in your daily life?

            •  Thse weekly *RARE* long trips. ROF,L. (0+ / 0-)

              And genset trailers.  Buy a plug in hybrid and plug it into a generator on a trailer you tow for that purpose?  That's reaching. Car sharing?  Hey, anybody else going to my brother's tonight?  What? What are you talking about?

              Or do you not like the prospect of drastically reducing your daily energy costs, maintenance, and not having to go to gas stations in your daily life?

              I'd like nothing better, but I'd need a vehicle I could use in my daily life, which doesn't include dormitories and staying within 20 miles of home.

              That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

              by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 05:16:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you even paying attention? (0+ / 0-)

                Buy a plug in hybrid and plug it into a generator on a trailer you tow for that purpose?

                It's an either-or situation, not a both-and situation.  Weekly long trips?  What are you, a trucker, taking 100+ mile trips every week?  Far from the average American.   What, exactly, is your driving like?

                Car sharing?  Hey, anybody else going to my brother's tonight?

                Since you've clearly never heard of this, let me educate you.  There are commercial car-sharing services (like ZipCar) and private car co-ops.  These are groups that have cars in easy-to-get-to places in cities, big and small (my city of 50k has a car co-op).  If you're going on a long trip, you make use of one of these cars.  It's much cheaper than car ownership, and many users of such services make use of them to live without having to own a car at all.

                I'd like nothing better, but I'd need a vehicle I could use in my daily life, which doesn't include dormitories and staying within 20 miles of home.

                20 miles?  Wow, the miraculous shrinking range here!  No, 100 miles.  Unless you're planning to spend no time at your destination, wherein, 50 miles.  Except that there are rapid charge stations being built in most major cities, which means an 80% charge in half an hour (and in the future, even shorter).   And unless you use either a range-extending trailer or a plug-in hybrid, which boosts your range to unlimited.

                What do you mean by "include dormitories"?  While apartment-dwellers without power outlets are not ideal early adopters (have you ever actually checked for power outlets or asked your landlord about installing them if there aren't any?), ask Chelsea Sexton what it's like living in an apartment with an electric vehicle and no power.  She simply asked her employer to let her charge while at work; in my experience, about 80% of employers say yes.  

                •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                  Since you've clearly never heard of this, let me educate you.  There are commercial car-sharing services (like ZipCar) and private car co-ops.

                   You seem to think that California is Boston. My brother's place is not that urban and is nowhere near the town I live in.  This isn't catch a zip car at a BART station and drive it across town. Same problem with co-ops.

                  The 20 miles was aimed at your seeming perspective on reality, upon which your analyses seem to be based.  I don't believe that those rapid charge stations exist in most places and certainly not in the mountains, deserts, rural areas, etc.  The Leaf, the car under discussion, isn't a hybrid.  A range extending trailer is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.  Why not simply wait until they have a vehicle that can do the job.  Drive 75 to 80 miles (reduced range because of towing) pull off the road, fire up the generator, charge for an hour or two, drive to a gas station to get gas for the generator, drive 60 more miles (you wasted 10 getting to a station) - this is simply madness.

                  While apartment-dwellers without power outlets are not ideal early adopters (have you ever actually checked for power outlets or asked your landlord about installing them if there aren't any?), ask Chelsea Sexton what it's like living in an apartment with an electric vehicle and no power.  She simply asked her employer to let her charge while at work; in my experience, about 80% of employers say yes.  

                  I have no landlord, I am a homeowner - I am an adult.  Your experience is inconceivable.  A company has a floor in an office building,it hires 80 people, has no parking yet the boss will let everybody charge?  How?  Another place is a Deli, 4 employees - let's them run power cords across the sidewalk?  Be serious. I don't know where and how you live, but it is sounding more and more surreal every minute.

                  That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                  by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 10:15:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Same problem with co-ops? (0+ / 0-)

                    As I mentioned, my little midwest town of 50k has a car co-op.  It takes like four people to justify a car co-op.

                    I don't believe that those rapid charge stations exist in most places and certainly not in the mountains, deserts, rural areas, etc.

                    There are very few at all right now, but they're being built in each area where the Leaf is being sold, with the plan to have a several per major city and one or two in strategically located smaller cities in every region it's rolled out.

                    The Leaf, the car under discussion, isn't a hybrid.  A range extending trailer is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of.  Why not simply wait until they have a vehicle that can do the job.  Drive 75 to 80 miles (reduced range because of towing) pull off the road, fire up the generator, charge for an hour or two, drive to a gas station to get gas for the generator, drive 60 more miles (you wasted 10 getting to a station) - this is simply madness.

                    Once again, how about stopping ranting about a topic until you actually learn what the heck you're talking about?  That's not at all how range extending trailers work.  Range-extending trailers run while the vehicle is moving.  They turn an EV into a PHEV.  It's an EV when you don't want the range extender and a PHEV when you do.  When there's enough EVs on the road, you'll be able to rent or exchange them like Uhaul trailers or propane tanks; they're trivially easy to share.  

                    I have no landlord, I am a homeowner - I am an adult.

                    1. Then why are you talking about dormatories?
                    1. Wow, how freaking insulting to the half of Americans who can't afford a house can you get?  Anyone who doesn't have a house is an adult?  Jesus christ, go back to Free Republic.

                    A company has a floor in an office building,it hires 80 people, has no parking yet the boss will let everybody charge?

                    Most lots in which people park, no matter what type of business they work for, have at least some spaces adjacent to areas with power.  

                    Be serious. I don't know where and how you live, but it is sounding more and more surreal every minute.

                    I've lived in Long Beach, the Houston area, the Beaumont area, Terre Haute, Cedar Rapids, and Iowa City.  What's "surreal" is a person who's never actually bothered to look for exterior power outlets telling me that they don't exist, who's never known anyone who's asked their employer whether they can charge telling me that they can't, and who doesn't even know how a range extender works telling me that they're ridiculous.  And throwing in an insult to the poor to boot.

                    •  No insult to the poor, that's projection (0+ / 0-)

                      on your part or something.  I was not implying that only non-adults are renters, just getting all the facts out there, since you seem to have a lot of bizarre views about who I am.  

                      I live out here and I happen to know the facts.

                      As I mentioned, my little midwest town of 50k has a car co-op.  It takes like four people to justify a car co-op.

                      Pointless with respect to this discussion. Nobody's getting into a coop unless they think it will have substantial utility.  If they are all mostly homebodys and take turns driving one to Walmart and another to ShopKo and yet another to HiVee, that works.  Friday comes and one wants to go to Tahoe, and another wants to go to Monterey, and the guy working 4-10's has already taken it to go to Reno on
                      Thursday, etc.  Not relevant.

                      charging stations

                      There are very few at all right now,

                      Yep, making the Leaf completely impractical.

                      with the plan to have a several per major city and one or two in strategically located smaller cities in every region it's rolled out.

                      In other wrods, maybe eventually practical if you plan only to drive in the city and only selected routes, useless to the rest of us.

                      Range-extending trailers run while the vehicle is moving

                      Ah, tow a trailer, reducing range, top speed, acceleration and, essentially, running on gasoline or propane, and stopping to refill and having all the headaches of a gasoline powered car plus the inability to tow a utility trailer, ultralight camp trailer, or to use rear mounted bike racks and such.  Brilliant. Driving everywhere with a tow doesn't really appeal to me, and I doubt to many others, either.  I know, average commute doesn't require one, not relevant.

                      Most lots in which people park, no matter what type of business they work for, have at least some spaces adjacent to areas with power.  

                      In Iowa City in your opinion  Totally false where I live, in the local business district, and everywhere I've ever worked since maybe 1968.  Picture this - centered in a U shaped array of 5 massive 7 story buildings, no less than 50 feet from any building wall, is a large swath of asphalt with stripes on it.  No outlets on any walls and no hope whatsoever that the building management company that leases to the tenants will permit any idiot to create a grossly negligent tripping hazard and guaranteed lawsuit by running a 200' power cord from a ground floor office out past the elevators, past the door and into the lot.  Also picture this, Fred Smith goes to the local parking structure of which he is a monthly tenant, inserts his card, goes to the one spot where there is power for parking structure company use and plugs in.  When he returns, his card no longer lets him out and he is arrested for theft, misappropriation and a lot of other stuff.  He is eventually cut loose after reimbursing the parking company for the cost of the power and of every direct and indirect cost of having him busted, paying a small fine, losing his parking priveleges and becoming lifetime persona non grata at all ofthe 15 parking facilities run by that company.

                      Curbside power outlets, no stealing, no relying upon some phantom imaginary on site goodnatured boss to hold a lottery among the employees for the daily right to create a tripping hazard, not simply some "exterior power outlet", but one that somebody can legally and safely use, please.  Oh, and In CA, not in imaginary Iowa.

                      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                      by enhydra lutris on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 04:25:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  Then what, exactly, is your issue? (0+ / 0-)

        If the car meets your everyday needs, then what's the problem?  Or do you drive a cargo van around everywhere because every so often you might need all of that room?  Just like people don't (usually) drive cargo vans everywhere they go because they don't usually need all that space and instead borrow or rent them as needed (or have a cargo-hauler as a second vehicle), why shouldn't the same logic be applied to range?  Especially when it gets you a much lower per-mile rate.

        •  What is *my* problem? Bwahahahahaha (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          worldlotus

          Wherever you live it is pretty obvious that the expectations are to stay home whenever not at work. Your problem is that you need to get out and see some of the rest of the planet.  Here, many of us have lives (you can google it) and visit friends and family in the evenings and on weekends and days off, go on picnics, go camping, go to the ocean or the mountains or the desert, or simply to a good birding spot.  In fact many of us volunteer to do things  like nature surveys, our spare time as well.  

          Now 100 miles round trip is only 40 miles one way if one leaves a small margin of safety for running at night with lights on, using the wipers, etc., maybe 45 miles.  [Until there are power outlets every 25 feet along streets and in parking structures and such, a 100 mile range is the round-trip range] A great many people have greater commutes than that, I don't because I'm no longer employed.  Many even have much greater commutes than that.  Except for neighbors, not that many of our friends and acquaintances are within 50 miles, nor are a lot of the entertainment and recreational venues.

          You see 45 miles out and back, or 3-30 mile legs goes pretty much nowhere in CA, NV, AZ, UT, etc.  CA is 770 miles long and 250 wide.  From Berkeley to LA in the Leaf will take 4 to 5 days.  This is a vehicle designed for those who refuse to use public transit, but never really go anywhere, those living in Natick and working in Boston, or somesuch.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

          by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 03:52:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Ignoring the sarcasm (0+ / 0-)

            The average person works a mere 16 miles away from where they live.  Statistically, trips of over 100 miles are things that happen just a few times per year for the average American.  Some Americans more, some Americans less.

            Until there are power outlets every 25 feet along streets and in parking structures and such

            Ever looked for them?  You'd be surprised how common they already are.  Every rest stop in Iowa has pairs of 20A outlets (which can be chained, either by current, or by voltage with a Quick220) all along its exterior.  You see, in the real world, everywhere people occupy, there's need for maintenance.  And modern maintenance requires electricity.  So people put power outlets all over the place.  

            Here, just for your benefit, I went outside and checked the current building I'm in.  I've never checked it before, so I figured it'd be a good comparison.  Guess what?  In addition to there being half a million outlets inside that any good extension cord could reach, there was a pair of sockets right by the front door.

            We're a powered nation.  There's power everywhere.

            A great many people have greater commutes than that

            Two problems with what you wrote.

            1. No, they don't.  Statistically, the average commute distance is 16 miles.  Not 45, and certainly not more than 45.  
            1. I know many people who've asked their boss about charging at work.  The success rate is about 80%.  And about half the time, the power is free (the rest of the time, their employer requires them to use a Kill-a-Watt meter).

            You see 45 miles out and back,

            Really?  You go places 45 miles away (in CA traffic, an often hour and a half) and then immediately turn around an drive back?  No.  When people go places that far away, they tend to stay for hours.  And since there's power basically everywhere, that means you have a charge.

            Once again, I'll reiterate: according to driving statistics, long trips are not common for the average American.

            Now, let me ask you two questions:

            1. Do you drive a cargo van everywhere you go?
            1. What do you do when you need something that's too big for your commuter vehicle, then?
            •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

              Two problems with what you wrote.

                1. No, they don't.  Statistically, the average commute distance is 16 miles.  Not 45, and certainly not more than 45.  

              You need to take a stat course.  What is the average of 120, 62 and 3?  Would that be anywhere close to 60 in your universe?    

              Really?  You go places 45 miles away (in CA traffic, an often hour and a half) and then immediately turn around an drive back?  No.  When people go places that far away, they tend to stay for hours.  And since there's power basically everywhere, that means you have a charge.

               There isn't power everywhere and you don't have access to most of what is.  You really don't know anything about the real world, do you.  Berkeley to Santa Cruz is 78 miles, you stay maybe 1/2 day, part of it at beaches and parks (no power) and part of it at a friend's house and much of it driving around (no power) and then head home, but you can't.  Berkeley to Dry Creek Road, 74 miles, you stay nowhere over 45 minutes hit six or 7 stops, no power available to yu, and come back home - extremely common for Bay Area Folks to make similar runs.  You go camping, except you can't Yosemite, nope, Tahoe, nope, anywhere in the Sierras or desert, nope. Tomales Bay, can't get back, Bodega Bay, Can't get back, Mendocino, can't get there.  Until you've spent a year or two west of the rockies, don't presume to speak on vehicular needs out here.  Sure, we have the SOV commuters, many of whom to over 50 miles one way and have no plug in, but plenty of folk use public transit and such for all that local crap and use the car to enjoy the outdoors.  We can do that here, year round, but none of it is downtown or next door.

              Since yoyu haven't read anything in my prior messages, I'll assume you didn't read this one eaither and simply point out that your cargo van strawman is a strawman, like most of the other stuff you've spouted, the rest being misunderstood The average commuter drives 16 miles, hence there cannot be many who drive more - ROF,L.

              That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

              by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 05:35:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Range (0+ / 0-)

                You need to take a stat course.  What is the average of 120, 62 and 3?  Would that be anywhere close to 60 in your universe?

                What are you talking about?  If the US average is 16 miles, then Very Few People Are 45+ Miles.  Here's a stat lesson for you: what is the maximum  number of people with a range of over 45 miles that is physically possible while having the average be 16 miles?  Answer: 36%.  And that would be if everyone else's range was zero miles.  In the real world, just over 1% of Americans "stretch commute" (defined as a commute of over 50 miles).  And only 1 in 1000 commute more than 100 miles each way.

                There isn't power everywhere and you don't have access to most of what is

                There's power almost everywhere.  You've just never looked.

                Berkeley to Santa Cruz is 78 miles, you stay maybe 1/2 day, part of it at beaches and parks (no power) and part of it at a friend's house and much of it driving around (no power) and then head home, but you can't.

                Your friend lives without power?  Dear god, who is your friend, Ted Kazinski?

                No power at the beaches and parks of Santa Cruz?  Huh -- better tell that to Santa Cruz Harbor.  Or Soquel and Front Garage.  Or Toyota of Santa Cruz (a couple blocks from the ocean).  Or UC Santa Cruz (charger right by the park).  Or New Brighton State Beach.  Or the three different RV parks at Seaside Cliff State Beach.  Need I keep going?  Heck, practically any restaurant will let you charge if you order something.

                Berkeley to Dry Creek Road, 74 miles, you stay nowhere over 45 minutes hit six or 7 stops, no power available to yu, and come back home - extremely common for Bay Area Folks to make similar runs

                Are you kidding?  There's like 30 registered places to charge and/or RV parks along that route.

                Want me to go into your other routes?  And again, the average multi-hundred mile trip is extremely rare.  You can pretend otherwise, but driving statistics belie that.  And there's half a dozen different approaches for such trips.

                Hey, what do you do when you need to pick up a dryer?  What do you do when you need to pick up a washer?  What do you do when you need to pick up plywood?  What do you do when you need to help a friend move?  What do you do when you need to pick up a furnace?  Or an air conditioner?  Or a large piece of furnature?  

                See what it's like?  An obsession over rare long-range trips is no more reasonable than an obsession over rare large-object moving events.

                Until you've spent a year or two west of the rockies, don't presume to speak on vehicular needs out here

                I was born in California and go there all the time on business.  And honestly, I find it hilarious to hear people in population dense areas talking about how they're so much more in need of long-distance trips than we in low-population density areas.  I have to drive half an hour to get to an airport that only flies to four cities.  So hold your holier-than-thou attitude, please.

                I'll assume you didn't read this one eaither and simply point out that your cargo van strawman is a strawman, like most of the other stuff you've spouted,

                Not in the least.  It's an analogy, and analogies are perfectly fair.  Explain why it's fair game to bring up range but unfair to bring up cargo capacity.  You make sacrifices in cargo capacity in order to save energy and operating costs, and willfully rent for those few times per year where you need it.  Yet you completely refuse to even consider it when it comes to range and those few times per year you need longer range.

                The average commuter drives 16 miles, hence there cannot be many who drive more - ROF,L.

                I find it hilarious that you "ROFL" when the reality is that the situation you describe affects only 1% of the population (see earlier link).  You know nothing about driving statistics.

                •  You are simply insane on this topic. How long (0+ / 0-)

                  does it take to charge the damn thing and what makes you think that random homeowners and shopkeepers and restauranteurs are going to let every tom dick and harry park at their place for 1/2 a day charging up?

                  Do You have a clue what 36% of the US population is?  Do you have a clue what 10% of the US population is?  How about 25% of the Los Angeles basin population.  There are a grat number of people with commutes exceeding 45 miles one way, that is a fact, your "statistic" has nothing to do with that fact.

                  Range is relevant. Not everybody is in school.  Even 5 day a week employees, at least almost all of those I've known, get out and do things Friday nights and weekends.  A lot of those things on weekends are pretty long range.  If somebody goes to Sonoma to go wine tasting, there simply isn't any reasonable way to recharge to return.  You are simply crazy if you think that RV parks just let people drive up and charge and you still forget that it takes hours, turning a half day trip into an all day trip sitting in your car in some RV park.

                  The Santa Cruz example, which you purposely misunderstood and misrepresented is a good example.  You have absolutely no knowledge of reality so you twist crap.  Sure there may be some power on campus, if they let anybody and everybody use it, but I don't go there to go to the campus, and the beaches and parks I do go to don't have power - got it? So what if the harbor does, I don't go there. Maybe there are places I could go to that do, but that is not the point, the places I choose to go to, because I like them, don't have power.  How many CA state parks and state beaches have power that they will let people use for hours at a time to recharge their car?  What makes you falsely say that any restaurant will let you run a cord across the sidewalk, risking their insurance coverage, if you buy something?  You know that you couldn't possibly know that for a fact.

                  Yet you completely refuse to even consider it when it comes to range and those few times per year you need longer range.

                  I already, in the top line of a prior message, indicated that such treeps are weekly, and sometimes more.  this is more strawman crap.  You know absolutely nothing about the driving wnats and needs of most of the rest of the world, yet you pontificate about it any way.  What is this stupidity, buy a car that is only good for going to the store that you normally bicycle to, and they rent a car every weekend as well as every other time you need to travel over 100 miles in one day, be it a long trip or multiple sort ones.  Plan your whole life so you can arrange to have a rental reserved for all such days?

                  The simple fact is that the Leaf is only right for some people, and it isn't right for a great any others becasue of its tiny range.  The simply fact is that you are coming up with bizarre and outrageous ideas to try to get around the simply fact that 100 miles is nothing in much of the west, totally inadequate.  I can take you to a gret many stretches of road where there is absolutely no electricity for over 200 miles, none, not for all the money in the world.

                  That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                  by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 09:53:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Should you know, actually learn about a topic (0+ / 0-)

                    before getting self righteous about it?  Your posts are jam-packed full of misconceptions and misunderstandings.  Now you're asking how long it takes to charge?  Seriously, you've been having this whole debate and you don't even know that?

                    How long does it take to charge the damn thing and what makes you think that random homeowners and shopkeepers and restauranteurs are going to let every tom dick and harry park at their place for 1/2 a day charging up?

                    First off, who said homeowners?  Actually, some homeowners do list their homes as charging locations, but I never brought that up.  What makes me think that businesses will offer themselves up as charging stations?  The fact that businesses do offer themselves up for charging.  In the '90s, many times more businesses installed multi-thousand dollar inductive charging stations than there were EVs on the road!  I about a dozens of people with EVs, and none of them have ever been turned down on a request to charge at a location.  Most businesses are more than happy to let you charge there once they learn how little it costs -- it brings them business and earns brand loyalty.  

                    As for how long it takes to charge, that depends on the vehicle and power source.  For something like the Leaf, you'll get:

                    Level 3 rapid charger: ~160 miles range per hour charging
                    Level 2 J1772 charger, max current: ~90 miles range per hour charging (if your onboard is good enough)
                    50A RV socket (same socket as an oven uses), 50A sustained: ~55 miles range per hour charging
                    50A RV socket (like above), 42A sustained: ~45 miles range per hour charging
                    30A dryer socket (also used for tons of types of industrial and maintenance eq), 30A sustained: ~35 miles range per hour charging
                    30A dryer socket, 24A sustained: ~25 miles range per hour charging
                    20A 120V wall sockets, 2x chained with a Quick220 at 16A: ~18 miles range per hour charging
                    15A 120V wall sockets, 2x chained with a Quick220 at 12.5A: ~14 miles range per hour charging
                    20A 120V wall socket at 16A: ~9 miles range per hour charging
                    15A 120V wall socket at 12.5A: ~7 miles range per hour charging

                    So, for your hypothetical "day at the beach" example, you could get a full charge on a single 20A at 16A.  Every last rest stop in Iowa has about a dozen pairs of exterior 20A sockets (which can be chained).  For seeing a movie or shopping at a mall (~2.5h), an RV or range socket would get you a full charge, even if derated.  A simple pair of external sockets (they usually come in pairs) would add an extra 45 miles range with a Quick220.

                    Note that this is before charging stations become common.  There are tens of thousands of charging stations in the works right now being focused on the early markets, and more coming later for the later markets.

                    Do You have a clue what 36% of the US population is?

                    1. Yes -- it's a hypothetical number that would only be the right answer if everyone else's commute was zero miles.
                    1. It's a minority of people, while there's no way we could supply the majority of people EVs in any reasonable length of time even if we wanted to.

                    Do you have a clue what 10% of the US population is

                    Yes, way more than people who have 45 mile commutes.

                    How about 25% of the Los Angeles basin population.  

                    According to the census, LA's commute time is above average (29 minutes) but distance is average (16 miles).  So once again, your numbers are absurd.

                    Range is relevant.

                    So is cargo space.  And yet -- somehow, despite all odds -- we manage with sedans.  

                    Seriously, please stop dodging this.  It's a perfectly reasonable point.  People need cargo space every so often, about as often as they need long range.  But they still drive sedans.  Because people have long ago logically decided that a rare inconvenience is worth it to have operating costs 1/3rd as much as driving a cargo van everywhere.  And sedans still have to stop by gas stations!

                    Not everybody is in school.

                    You're the one who brought up dormatories.  I own my own company; how about you?

                    A lot of those things on weekends are pretty long range.

                    Statistically, no.  Pull up all the anecdotes you want.  But statistically, no.

                    You are simply crazy if you think that RV parks just let people drive up and charge

                    They do, if you pay.

                    sitting in your car in some RV park

                    Who said "sitting in your car"?  For example, you were talking about beaches in Santa Cruz before -- you know that there are four RV parks on the beach in Santa Cruz?

                    You have absolutely no knowledge of reality so you twist crap.  Sure there may be some power on campus, if they let anybody and everybody use it, but I don't go there to go to the campus, and the beaches and parks I do go to don't have power - got it? So what if the harbor does, I don't go there.

                    Then for God's sake, tell me where you go!  I'm not a mind reader.  You wanted power on beaches and parks, so I named half a dozen sites.  And this is before the big charger construction boom gets underway this summer.  If you want a specific location, get specific.  I'm tired of your mind games.

                    How many CA state parks and state beaches have power that they will let people use for hours at a time to recharge their car?

                    I don't live in CA, but I can tell you that I've talked to the Iowa DOT, and they have no restrictions on using power at the rest areas.  I haven't asked about parks, but I imagine it's similar.

                    What makes you falsely say that any restaurant will let you run a cord across the sidewalk, risking their insurance coverage, if you buy something?  You know that you couldn't possibly know that for a fact.

                    First off, it's not cute how you removed the word "practically" before the word "any".  It's a lot easier to argue against people if you change their statements around, isn't it?

                    Secondly, that comes from the experience of the dozen or so people with EVs I know, not one of whom has ever been turned down.  Now, where does your experience of restaurants not allowing it come from?  Your preaching from a pulpit of ignorance gets really tiring.

                    I already, in the top line of a prior message, indicated that such treeps are weekly, and sometimes more.

                    You weekly drive to Santa Cruz?  Really?  Holy-1-percenter, Batman!

                    You know absolutely nothing about the driving wnats and needs of most of the rest of the world

                    Ha!  I'm the one quoting referenced statistics here.  That's rich.

                    buy a car that is only good for going to the store that you normally bicycle to

                    Wow, now the range of the Leaf in your mind is down to 5 miles or so!  

                    Coming up, in enhydra lutris's next post: "EVs only go five feet before they run out of charge!"

                    Once again, I'll note that you refused to address the issue that most people willfully and readily sacrifice cargo space for lower operating costs.  Which is a direct mirror of the range issue.

                    •  As usual,m you are talking absolute nonsense and (0+ / 0-)

                      making crap up as you go.  Iowa isn't CA.  Why do you keep babbling about what Iowa has.  CA rest stops have no curbside electric, damn little electric for the maintenance guys and are, at this time, mostly closed and irrelevant.

                      Now, how does a day at the beach work in your world.  You have 20A sand?  You forget to allow for the fact that those sockets aren't there.

                      I don't live in CA, but I can tell you that I've talked to the Iowa DOT, and they have no restrictions on using power at the rest areas.  I haven't asked about parks, but I imagine it's similar..

                      Precisely, and you can't imagine anything being any different, but it is and you are making crap up every time you say what will or would happen here.  In one message you made some crack about out here versus back there where things really are far apart.  What you got back there as far apart as San Francisco and San Diego?  You give yourself away when you act like 100 miles is some big freaking distance and babble about truck drivers.  I know guys who were route drivers in IA and MN, and even there 100 won't cut it, not if you actually wish to get paid.  100 is no mileage.  

                      When we go to Sta Cruz, for example, we go over th half-moon bay and then down the coast to Aptos, pick up some friends (they have a 2 seater, so we drive) hit maybe manresa or sunset state beach, maybe forest of nicene marks, maybe go wander around the sta cruz mtns, go hit some wine bars and tasting rooms and either head home or grab a quick dinner and then head home.  It is a drop over 100 miles to our friends house in Aptios, so the trip is completely impossible, period. We do this several times per year.  Lots of people go to Sta cruz monthly or more often, it is sort of a playground for bay area types.  50 miles one way, is absolutely nothing, we routinely go further than that to picnic or go birding or meet friends for lunch.
                      As I said in one of my first responses, it is pretty obvious that you don't live out here.
                      Yosemite, about 2 to 3 times per year, about 140 miles one way, stay a few days and come back.  Wine country about every month to six weeks roughly 200 mile circuit.  Tahoe at least once.  Mendocino Fort Brag, Ukiah circuit over 100 up, 100 or more circuit, over 100 back.  Forestville then to the coast to Pt Reyes then to Petaluma. Meet LA friends in Morro Bay, SLO, Los Olivos, at least once.  Way over 100 one way.  At least one trip to ABDSP, 550 miles one way, about 3 days down, about 3 days back, and at least 2 to 3 100 mile days sightseing and nature watching while we're there.  At least one trip up to Quincy/ Portola/Marysville/etc. area, well over 100 miles, most often over 200, stay a few days, return.  That is a small sampling, and we aren't that unusual.  We have a gob of friends all over the state that behave similarly, and, like us, pretty much always have, and we're always running into similar folks wherever we wind up.  

                      Yes, there are people who do the work 5 8 hour days and then stay home except to run out to the equivalent of Shopko or HyVee. but there are also people who work 4-10s to maximize their time traveling.  There are tons of people who go to the mountains to ski every damn weekend that there is snow up there.  My neighbor drives about 45-50 miles to his golf club and then runs errands on the way back on Saturdays.  The people west of the rockies who want to get out into nature routinely drive hundreds of miles to do so, and contrary to Iowa national standards aren't going to be getting access to electricity while they're doing it unless they go out of their way to find rv parks, and in many places, that isn't possible.  

                      Seriously, please stop dodging this.  It's a perfectly reasonable point.  People need cargo space every so often, about as often as they need long range.  But they still drive sedans.  Because people have long ago logically decided that a rare inconvenience is worth it to have operating costs 1/3rd as mu

                      I'm not dodging it, I'm saying that it is blisteringly irrelevant.  Perhaps in Iowa, people go over 50 miles one way as rarely as they need a cargo van, but it ain't the case out here.  I haven't needed a cargo van in 20 years and don't know too many people who have.

                      According to the census, LA's commute time is above average (29 minutes) but distance is average (16 miles).  So once again, your numbers are absurd.

                      No, but your misunderstanding of what an average is is.  Plus, unlike your imaginary CA residents, the real folk get out on weekends and even on evenings.  San Diego to Pasadena to see the newest exhibit at the Huntington, for example, about 130 miles one way, nobody thinks a thing of it or going even further to catch some hot band  or performer, just like nobody really thinks overmuch of running from the Bay Area to Fresno or Tahoe and even LA once in a while for a special event.

                      Businesses allowing charging?  Nah, you have absolutely no facts relative to CA .  I'm willing to bet 50 bux that I can go door to door in the downtown Oakland or SF or San Diego business district and ask if I can run a power cable from somewhere in their establishment, across the floor, out the front door, across the sidewalk and partway down the block to my car for a couple or 3 hours and get turned down every single time.

                      Once again, I'll note that you refused to address the issue that most people willfully and readily sacrifice cargo space for lower operating costs.  Which is a direct mirror of the range issue.

                      Completely irrelevant and not remotely similar.  Also completely ignores popularity of pick ups, vans and van conversions, mini vans and SUVs.

                      You are arguing tha 100 miles is ample range for anybody because most people don't drive a cargo van - complete non sequitur.  You are basing this all on some imaginary Iowa and applying it to CA.  I know people in Des Moines who routinely go to Mason City, Guttenberg and up into southern MN as far as Faribault and Owatonna, yet you claim it doesn't happen out west, where, for example people regularly go to Tahoe and Reno from places like San Jose and all you have to back it up is some average one way commute data per the US census.  Do you want to guess how many times I've driven to IA?  One friend drives from Fresno both to FL and WI every year and well as all over CA as often as he can get out of the house.  People aren't all stay at homes who never go out of their neighborhood except to Walmart and work, not even in IA, and certainly not in CA, NV, AZ, NM, TX, OR, WA and UT.

                      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                      by enhydra lutris on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 02:58:01 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  stI'm so used to people (0+ / 0-)

              misunderstanding what an average is from the other viewpoint that I maade my example upside-down for this conversation - try 100, 3,3,2,1,1; average is 18, nonetheless, one number is well over 50.  Average for metropolitan Boston is not average for greater Los Angeles, Average for US isn't average for CA or NV.

              That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

              by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 06:20:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And? (0+ / 0-)

                I know damn well what an average is like.  That doesn't change the fact that  1 in 1,000 Americans commute 100 miles or more to work.  You're living in this imaginary world where a sizeable fraction of people spend their entire day either working or commuting to and from work.

                Seriously, get over yourself and educate yourself on a topic before you deign to lecture people about it.

                •  You are the one that needs a bit of (0+ / 0-)

                  education and perspective, especially since 100 mile range, as I've said before, means 45 mile one-way commute.  Now, give me your citation for that little 1 in 1,000 "fact", then go find one for how many do 45.  The last job I worked at, over half of the team I was on had a commute in excess of 45 miles.

                  That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                  by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 09:57:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I already linked it. (0+ / 0-)

                    Need me to link it again?  Here you go.  Go ahead and let me know how many more times I need to link it for you so I can get that out of the way.  The number for over 50 miles is just under 1 in 100 Americans (3.3 million).

                    •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                      SOURCE: National Household Travel Survey, 2001-2002.

                      National Household Travel Survey
                      "Stretch Commute" Quick Facts

                      "Stretch Commute" trips are at least 50 miles one way.

                      Commuting in America

                         * In a year, 3.3 million Americans "stretch-commute"
                         * More than one out of 10 (13 percent) long-distance trips are for commuting
                         * Just over one out of five (22 percent) long distance trips between 50 and 99 miles are for commuting

                       Meaning that 11% of them are round trip commutes of 100 to 198 miles.  Only 13% of long distance trips are for commuting, making it somewhat massively irrelevant as to actual traveling, but, what the hey, it argues for short trips if you ignore the fact that 90% of trips aren't included at all.

                      How Far We Travel When Stretch Commuting

                         * About three out of five (62 percent) stretch commutes are 50-74 miles

                      100-148 round trip
                       

                      * One out of five (19 percent) stretch commutes are 75-99 miles

                      150-198 round trip
                         

                      * Less than one in 10 (7 percent) stretch commutes are 100-124 miles

                      200-248 round trip, not 100 - tsk, tsk.  You don't need to fudge this if you truly believe in a recharger on every corner and all that twaddle.
                         

                      * More than one out of 20 (6 percent) stretch commutes are 125-199 miles
                         * More than one out of 20 (6 percent) of stretch commutes are 200+ miles

                      24 out of 25 (96 percent) stretch commutes are done by personal vehicle.

                      What is NHTS?
                      The 2001-2002 National Household Travel Survey (NHTS) is a national survey of daily and long-distance travel. The survey includes demographic characteristics of households, people, vehicles, and detailed information on daily and longer-distance travel for all purposes by all modes.

                      Like, bus, subway, bike, walk, might have an impact on average, but, nah not in IA at any rate.

                      There are approximately a total of 66,000 households in the final 2001-2002 NHTS dataset. About 26,000 households are in the national sample, while the remaining 40,000 households are from nine add-on areas.

                      What is an Add-On?
                      Since the NHTS is a national survey, it collects data from a nationally representative sample of households to derive statistically reliably travel estimates at the national level. Sample data in the NHTS are not adequate to provide statewide, or area-specific estimates. For certain states and local jurisdictions interested in developing travel estimates for their specific areas, additional household interviews were conducted to enlarge their sample size. The jurisdictions that purchased these additional samples are referred to as the "add-on" areas. In the 2001-2002 NHTS, there are nine add-on areas:

                        1. Baltimore MPO, Maryland
                        2. Des Moines MPO , Iowa
                        3. Edmonson, Carter, Pulaski, and Scott Counties, Kentucky
                        4. Lancaster MPO, Pennsylvania
                        5. Oahu MPO, Hawaii
                        6. State of Hawaii, except Oahu
                        7. State of New York
                        8. State of Texas
                        9. State of Wisconsin

                      Where's L.A.?  Where's CA?

                      You know, I just noticed that this is massively off topic as well as totally fruitless, so meditate on why most cars get 300-400 miles per tank and lemme know when they have charging stations covering CA in a grid such that no two are over 50 miles apart and all can handle 10 to twenty vehicles simultaneously.

                      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

                      by enhydra lutris on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 05:00:56 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  I, for one, have clients. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      worldlotus

      My 'commute' is mostly under 25 miles a day.

      Except for the fairly often jobs that are 250 miles each way to somewhat remote places...And the fact that I occasionally like to get out of the city.

      In the midwest and northern CA, you might walk out the back door to your job...But the weekly (or more) drive to the big supermarket is 40 miles or more each way. Given how far it is, you buy a lot, and you combine that 'errand' with a stop by TSCO, and maybe you bring the sick dog into the vet, and grab a few bags of fertilizer...Suddenly, the electric car has 600 pounds of cargo, and needs to go another 40 miles.

      In California, driving from Richmond to San Jose and back is over 100 miles round-trip. Sucks having to drop someone off at the airport.

      Costa Mesa to Burbank is a 100 miles round trip. A lot of people working in the film industry have probably made that drive.

      Covelo to Ukiah is a rather twisty 60 miles. Each way. At least a hundred people make that drive once a week. Be glad they do, because it allows for the creation of many, many tons of pot.

      I guess the point is that electric cars are great in suburbia...Not so much outside of that. With the destruction of the middle class came the destruction of jobs that had long-term stability.

      I don't know week-to-week where I will be working. If I had a salaried position 20 miles from home, I would buy an electric car. No question.

      A re-built middle class would make for a better electric car market.

      It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery, which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. -RWE

      by Gravedugger on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 02:44:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  First, you overplay the impact of payload. (0+ / 0-)

        Electric vehicles are no less capable of carrying big payloads than gasoline vehicles are.  Remember, diesel locomotives are really electric locomotives with onboard generators.  The Leaf is, by all standards, a normal sedan in terms of capabilities, except being shorter range, slightly higher acceleration than average, and of course, running on electricity.  

        Yes, adding more payload will impact range, but not that much.  Highway range is dominated by aerodynamics, and the car starts out at 3k lbs, so....

        May I ask how many vehicles you have, and whether you currently use your cargo hauler as a daily commuter?  As well as how frequent your long trips are?  Your driving habits are not typical, certainly, but something like a Long Ranger may be perfect for you.  Take it when you need it, leave it when you don't, lease it, borrow it, rent it, own it, whatever you want.  Cheap, efficient, and ideal for those who want the more than occasional long trip but don't have a second car.

        By the time the Leaf hits the streets, every major California city should have at least one Level 3 (rapid charger).  So just in case none of the places you stop have any charging offered (it became trendy in the '90s to offer free charging as a loss leader for the green cred and to get people to show up to shop, and that should be dramatically more this time around with the huge volume of EVs being produced), and you do that "many unexpected stops" route you proposed above, you can always just stop by the rapid charger.  And you don't need a full charge.

        I guess the point is that electric cars are great in suburbia...Not so much outside of that.

        The "point" is that very few trips taken by the average American are over 100 miles, and that can be completely invalidated by any of the following:

        1. Rapid charging
        1. Genset trailer
        1. PHEV instead of EV
        1. Car rental
        1. Car borrowing
        1. Car co-op
        1. Second car ownership (extremely common)

        And furthermore, the argument of "why should I take a hit to range when I don't have to" is easily rendered moot by pointing out that people already make sacrifices to gain efficiency -- for example, by not driving a a cargo van all over the place, you sacrifice your carrying capability, which you may need a couple times a year, but in turn you gain comfort and lower operating costs.  By driving an EV, you get even lower operating costs and the incredible convenience of never having to go to a gas station in your normal life.  Every day you start out with maximum range without even having to think about when the last time you "filled up" was.

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