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  •  You are simply insane on this topic. How long (0+ / 0-)

    does it take to charge the damn thing and what makes you think that random homeowners and shopkeepers and restauranteurs are going to let every tom dick and harry park at their place for 1/2 a day charging up?

    Do You have a clue what 36% of the US population is?  Do you have a clue what 10% of the US population is?  How about 25% of the Los Angeles basin population.  There are a grat number of people with commutes exceeding 45 miles one way, that is a fact, your "statistic" has nothing to do with that fact.

    Range is relevant. Not everybody is in school.  Even 5 day a week employees, at least almost all of those I've known, get out and do things Friday nights and weekends.  A lot of those things on weekends are pretty long range.  If somebody goes to Sonoma to go wine tasting, there simply isn't any reasonable way to recharge to return.  You are simply crazy if you think that RV parks just let people drive up and charge and you still forget that it takes hours, turning a half day trip into an all day trip sitting in your car in some RV park.

    The Santa Cruz example, which you purposely misunderstood and misrepresented is a good example.  You have absolutely no knowledge of reality so you twist crap.  Sure there may be some power on campus, if they let anybody and everybody use it, but I don't go there to go to the campus, and the beaches and parks I do go to don't have power - got it? So what if the harbor does, I don't go there. Maybe there are places I could go to that do, but that is not the point, the places I choose to go to, because I like them, don't have power.  How many CA state parks and state beaches have power that they will let people use for hours at a time to recharge their car?  What makes you falsely say that any restaurant will let you run a cord across the sidewalk, risking their insurance coverage, if you buy something?  You know that you couldn't possibly know that for a fact.

    Yet you completely refuse to even consider it when it comes to range and those few times per year you need longer range.

    I already, in the top line of a prior message, indicated that such treeps are weekly, and sometimes more.  this is more strawman crap.  You know absolutely nothing about the driving wnats and needs of most of the rest of the world, yet you pontificate about it any way.  What is this stupidity, buy a car that is only good for going to the store that you normally bicycle to, and they rent a car every weekend as well as every other time you need to travel over 100 miles in one day, be it a long trip or multiple sort ones.  Plan your whole life so you can arrange to have a rental reserved for all such days?

    The simple fact is that the Leaf is only right for some people, and it isn't right for a great any others becasue of its tiny range.  The simply fact is that you are coming up with bizarre and outrageous ideas to try to get around the simply fact that 100 miles is nothing in much of the west, totally inadequate.  I can take you to a gret many stretches of road where there is absolutely no electricity for over 200 miles, none, not for all the money in the world.

    That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

    by enhydra lutris on Thu Apr 22, 2010 at 09:53:50 PM PDT

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    •  Should you know, actually learn about a topic (0+ / 0-)

      before getting self righteous about it?  Your posts are jam-packed full of misconceptions and misunderstandings.  Now you're asking how long it takes to charge?  Seriously, you've been having this whole debate and you don't even know that?

      How long does it take to charge the damn thing and what makes you think that random homeowners and shopkeepers and restauranteurs are going to let every tom dick and harry park at their place for 1/2 a day charging up?

      First off, who said homeowners?  Actually, some homeowners do list their homes as charging locations, but I never brought that up.  What makes me think that businesses will offer themselves up as charging stations?  The fact that businesses do offer themselves up for charging.  In the '90s, many times more businesses installed multi-thousand dollar inductive charging stations than there were EVs on the road!  I about a dozens of people with EVs, and none of them have ever been turned down on a request to charge at a location.  Most businesses are more than happy to let you charge there once they learn how little it costs -- it brings them business and earns brand loyalty.  

      As for how long it takes to charge, that depends on the vehicle and power source.  For something like the Leaf, you'll get:

      Level 3 rapid charger: ~160 miles range per hour charging
      Level 2 J1772 charger, max current: ~90 miles range per hour charging (if your onboard is good enough)
      50A RV socket (same socket as an oven uses), 50A sustained: ~55 miles range per hour charging
      50A RV socket (like above), 42A sustained: ~45 miles range per hour charging
      30A dryer socket (also used for tons of types of industrial and maintenance eq), 30A sustained: ~35 miles range per hour charging
      30A dryer socket, 24A sustained: ~25 miles range per hour charging
      20A 120V wall sockets, 2x chained with a Quick220 at 16A: ~18 miles range per hour charging
      15A 120V wall sockets, 2x chained with a Quick220 at 12.5A: ~14 miles range per hour charging
      20A 120V wall socket at 16A: ~9 miles range per hour charging
      15A 120V wall socket at 12.5A: ~7 miles range per hour charging

      So, for your hypothetical "day at the beach" example, you could get a full charge on a single 20A at 16A.  Every last rest stop in Iowa has about a dozen pairs of exterior 20A sockets (which can be chained).  For seeing a movie or shopping at a mall (~2.5h), an RV or range socket would get you a full charge, even if derated.  A simple pair of external sockets (they usually come in pairs) would add an extra 45 miles range with a Quick220.

      Note that this is before charging stations become common.  There are tens of thousands of charging stations in the works right now being focused on the early markets, and more coming later for the later markets.

      Do You have a clue what 36% of the US population is?

      1. Yes -- it's a hypothetical number that would only be the right answer if everyone else's commute was zero miles.
      1. It's a minority of people, while there's no way we could supply the majority of people EVs in any reasonable length of time even if we wanted to.

      Do you have a clue what 10% of the US population is

      Yes, way more than people who have 45 mile commutes.

      How about 25% of the Los Angeles basin population.  

      According to the census, LA's commute time is above average (29 minutes) but distance is average (16 miles).  So once again, your numbers are absurd.

      Range is relevant.

      So is cargo space.  And yet -- somehow, despite all odds -- we manage with sedans.  

      Seriously, please stop dodging this.  It's a perfectly reasonable point.  People need cargo space every so often, about as often as they need long range.  But they still drive sedans.  Because people have long ago logically decided that a rare inconvenience is worth it to have operating costs 1/3rd as much as driving a cargo van everywhere.  And sedans still have to stop by gas stations!

      Not everybody is in school.

      You're the one who brought up dormatories.  I own my own company; how about you?

      A lot of those things on weekends are pretty long range.

      Statistically, no.  Pull up all the anecdotes you want.  But statistically, no.

      You are simply crazy if you think that RV parks just let people drive up and charge

      They do, if you pay.

      sitting in your car in some RV park

      Who said "sitting in your car"?  For example, you were talking about beaches in Santa Cruz before -- you know that there are four RV parks on the beach in Santa Cruz?

      You have absolutely no knowledge of reality so you twist crap.  Sure there may be some power on campus, if they let anybody and everybody use it, but I don't go there to go to the campus, and the beaches and parks I do go to don't have power - got it? So what if the harbor does, I don't go there.

      Then for God's sake, tell me where you go!  I'm not a mind reader.  You wanted power on beaches and parks, so I named half a dozen sites.  And this is before the big charger construction boom gets underway this summer.  If you want a specific location, get specific.  I'm tired of your mind games.

      How many CA state parks and state beaches have power that they will let people use for hours at a time to recharge their car?

      I don't live in CA, but I can tell you that I've talked to the Iowa DOT, and they have no restrictions on using power at the rest areas.  I haven't asked about parks, but I imagine it's similar.

      What makes you falsely say that any restaurant will let you run a cord across the sidewalk, risking their insurance coverage, if you buy something?  You know that you couldn't possibly know that for a fact.

      First off, it's not cute how you removed the word "practically" before the word "any".  It's a lot easier to argue against people if you change their statements around, isn't it?

      Secondly, that comes from the experience of the dozen or so people with EVs I know, not one of whom has ever been turned down.  Now, where does your experience of restaurants not allowing it come from?  Your preaching from a pulpit of ignorance gets really tiring.

      I already, in the top line of a prior message, indicated that such treeps are weekly, and sometimes more.

      You weekly drive to Santa Cruz?  Really?  Holy-1-percenter, Batman!

      You know absolutely nothing about the driving wnats and needs of most of the rest of the world

      Ha!  I'm the one quoting referenced statistics here.  That's rich.

      buy a car that is only good for going to the store that you normally bicycle to

      Wow, now the range of the Leaf in your mind is down to 5 miles or so!  

      Coming up, in enhydra lutris's next post: "EVs only go five feet before they run out of charge!"

      Once again, I'll note that you refused to address the issue that most people willfully and readily sacrifice cargo space for lower operating costs.  Which is a direct mirror of the range issue.

      •  As usual,m you are talking absolute nonsense and (0+ / 0-)

        making crap up as you go.  Iowa isn't CA.  Why do you keep babbling about what Iowa has.  CA rest stops have no curbside electric, damn little electric for the maintenance guys and are, at this time, mostly closed and irrelevant.

        Now, how does a day at the beach work in your world.  You have 20A sand?  You forget to allow for the fact that those sockets aren't there.

        I don't live in CA, but I can tell you that I've talked to the Iowa DOT, and they have no restrictions on using power at the rest areas.  I haven't asked about parks, but I imagine it's similar..

        Precisely, and you can't imagine anything being any different, but it is and you are making crap up every time you say what will or would happen here.  In one message you made some crack about out here versus back there where things really are far apart.  What you got back there as far apart as San Francisco and San Diego?  You give yourself away when you act like 100 miles is some big freaking distance and babble about truck drivers.  I know guys who were route drivers in IA and MN, and even there 100 won't cut it, not if you actually wish to get paid.  100 is no mileage.  

        When we go to Sta Cruz, for example, we go over th half-moon bay and then down the coast to Aptos, pick up some friends (they have a 2 seater, so we drive) hit maybe manresa or sunset state beach, maybe forest of nicene marks, maybe go wander around the sta cruz mtns, go hit some wine bars and tasting rooms and either head home or grab a quick dinner and then head home.  It is a drop over 100 miles to our friends house in Aptios, so the trip is completely impossible, period. We do this several times per year.  Lots of people go to Sta cruz monthly or more often, it is sort of a playground for bay area types.  50 miles one way, is absolutely nothing, we routinely go further than that to picnic or go birding or meet friends for lunch.
        As I said in one of my first responses, it is pretty obvious that you don't live out here.
        Yosemite, about 2 to 3 times per year, about 140 miles one way, stay a few days and come back.  Wine country about every month to six weeks roughly 200 mile circuit.  Tahoe at least once.  Mendocino Fort Brag, Ukiah circuit over 100 up, 100 or more circuit, over 100 back.  Forestville then to the coast to Pt Reyes then to Petaluma. Meet LA friends in Morro Bay, SLO, Los Olivos, at least once.  Way over 100 one way.  At least one trip to ABDSP, 550 miles one way, about 3 days down, about 3 days back, and at least 2 to 3 100 mile days sightseing and nature watching while we're there.  At least one trip up to Quincy/ Portola/Marysville/etc. area, well over 100 miles, most often over 200, stay a few days, return.  That is a small sampling, and we aren't that unusual.  We have a gob of friends all over the state that behave similarly, and, like us, pretty much always have, and we're always running into similar folks wherever we wind up.  

        Yes, there are people who do the work 5 8 hour days and then stay home except to run out to the equivalent of Shopko or HyVee. but there are also people who work 4-10s to maximize their time traveling.  There are tons of people who go to the mountains to ski every damn weekend that there is snow up there.  My neighbor drives about 45-50 miles to his golf club and then runs errands on the way back on Saturdays.  The people west of the rockies who want to get out into nature routinely drive hundreds of miles to do so, and contrary to Iowa national standards aren't going to be getting access to electricity while they're doing it unless they go out of their way to find rv parks, and in many places, that isn't possible.  

        Seriously, please stop dodging this.  It's a perfectly reasonable point.  People need cargo space every so often, about as often as they need long range.  But they still drive sedans.  Because people have long ago logically decided that a rare inconvenience is worth it to have operating costs 1/3rd as mu

        I'm not dodging it, I'm saying that it is blisteringly irrelevant.  Perhaps in Iowa, people go over 50 miles one way as rarely as they need a cargo van, but it ain't the case out here.  I haven't needed a cargo van in 20 years and don't know too many people who have.

        According to the census, LA's commute time is above average (29 minutes) but distance is average (16 miles).  So once again, your numbers are absurd.

        No, but your misunderstanding of what an average is is.  Plus, unlike your imaginary CA residents, the real folk get out on weekends and even on evenings.  San Diego to Pasadena to see the newest exhibit at the Huntington, for example, about 130 miles one way, nobody thinks a thing of it or going even further to catch some hot band  or performer, just like nobody really thinks overmuch of running from the Bay Area to Fresno or Tahoe and even LA once in a while for a special event.

        Businesses allowing charging?  Nah, you have absolutely no facts relative to CA .  I'm willing to bet 50 bux that I can go door to door in the downtown Oakland or SF or San Diego business district and ask if I can run a power cable from somewhere in their establishment, across the floor, out the front door, across the sidewalk and partway down the block to my car for a couple or 3 hours and get turned down every single time.

        Once again, I'll note that you refused to address the issue that most people willfully and readily sacrifice cargo space for lower operating costs.  Which is a direct mirror of the range issue.

        Completely irrelevant and not remotely similar.  Also completely ignores popularity of pick ups, vans and van conversions, mini vans and SUVs.

        You are arguing tha 100 miles is ample range for anybody because most people don't drive a cargo van - complete non sequitur.  You are basing this all on some imaginary Iowa and applying it to CA.  I know people in Des Moines who routinely go to Mason City, Guttenberg and up into southern MN as far as Faribault and Owatonna, yet you claim it doesn't happen out west, where, for example people regularly go to Tahoe and Reno from places like San Jose and all you have to back it up is some average one way commute data per the US census.  Do you want to guess how many times I've driven to IA?  One friend drives from Fresno both to FL and WI every year and well as all over CA as often as he can get out of the house.  People aren't all stay at homes who never go out of their neighborhood except to Walmart and work, not even in IA, and certainly not in CA, NV, AZ, NM, TX, OR, WA and UT.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

        by enhydra lutris on Fri Apr 23, 2010 at 02:58:01 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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