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View Diary: A Possible Opening for U.S. Peace Efforts in the Middle East (205 comments)

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  •  Moreover... (4+ / 0-)

    ...why would the Israeli elite adopt such a blunt instrument, like direct transfer, when the indirect methods of ethnic cleansing are working so well?

    Russian support is in any event fickle; perhaps Lieberman would be more comfortable working with the Russians, but Netanyahu, Livni et al seem to be fine with the current program.

    Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

    by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:19:02 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  precisely (4+ / 0-)

      We need only observe the reaction to Netanyahu's recent visit to Washington during the health care vote. All the heated debate, the vitriolic statements from Dems and Repubs directed toward each other, were transcended by their desire to show common cause with Netanyahu--Pelosi came together with Republicans to say that this is one issue where there was no disagreement. The US supports Israel no matter what it does. And let's be honest here: I do believe that the so-called Zionist liberals here takes delight in such pronouncements of bi-partisan support for Israel.

      •  hhmmm... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Paul in Berkeley, JNEREBEL

        And let's be honest here: I do believe that the so-called Zionist liberals here takes delight in such pronouncements of bi-partisan support for Israel.

        i don't understand. is this a roundabout way of claiming that all zionists are republicans?

        "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

        by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:27:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Really - do you also (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Paul in Berkeley, JNEREBEL, Red Sox

        believe in the tooth fairy or Santa Claus or does you belief in mythology only relate to the Middle East?

        I can tell you as a huge supporter of President Obama and his peace plan - I don't McConnell, Boehner, Cantor, Sessions and the other nut jobs supporting that.

        Of course to you it seems that supporting the existence of Israel as a Jewish Homeland is standing with Bibi. Oh wait of course... yet another piece of mythology... my bad.

        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

        by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:29:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  does (5+ / 0-)

          Obama have a peace plan? What is it?

          And there you go again, suggesting that someone who challenges you just might not support the "existence of a Jewish homeland." What's next, veiled accusations of anti-semitism?

          •  Yes (4+ / 0-)

            They're called stalling proximity talks.

            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

            by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:42:48 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Ummm you just accused us of using (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL, Red Sox

            "Anti Arab Racism" so that's ok... but calling out A.S. is not?

            Doesn't matter I wasn't going that way. Obama's plan for now is Two States along the 1967 lines with negotiated adjustments. Also Jerusalem divided. The nuts and bolts he said were due at the end of the summer.

            You have all but said I stand with Bibi and you may have even said that at one point. But it seems to you all us Zionists are the same - well no you like the self designated Right Wingers more because to you they are more honest. Right?

            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

            by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:46:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  do you deny (5+ / 0-)

              that anti-Arab racism plays a role among the general public, not to mention mainstream pro-Israel organizations, which tend to support Israel uncritically?

              Excuse me, I did not say you stand with Bibi. Not all Zionists are the same. But all Zionists support some of the same things--for example, the permanent exile of Palestinians is one thing, the racist demography arguments are another, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in 1948 is another. Or do you disagree?

              Now, please, by all means, commence with the anti-semitism accusation.

              •  But how can I ... I said I wasn't going (0+ / 0-)

                down that road. Oh and for the "racist demography arguments"... Israeli M.K.'s and Libya's Qadaffi make them too. Here let me enlighten you

                The Israeli Arab MK voiced criticism of Israel's settlement policy in the West Bank as "emptying the two-state solution of all meaning."

                In response, Gadhafi told the MKs that a "human explosion is stronger than nuclear weapons", advising them to have as many children as possible.

                ......In a text message to Haaretz, MK Taleb Al-Sana described the meeting, which took place in a tent in the city of Surt, as "wonderful."

                http://www.haaretz.com/...

                That silly Moammar using racist demographic terms with those Palestinian MK's - I know they raised an out..... oh wait... no they didn't.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:04:19 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Well, you got your answer (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

              Ummm you just accused us of using "Anti Arab Racism" so that's ok... but calling out A.S. is not?

              The former accusation is acceptable, while the latter shall never be a topic for discussion.

          •  if i recall correctly... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

            you don't support the "existence of a Jewish homeland"  - via the zionism is racism dogma - am i remembering incorrectly?

            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

            by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:51:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You of course (6+ / 0-)

              recall incorrectly. While Zionism has anti-Arab racism embedded with its ideology, one need not support the state of Israel in its current manifestation to support a Jewish homeland. I support a homeland for Jews where they live as equals among Palestinians, not as masters of them. How about you? Do you support giving Palestinians the exact same rights as Jewish Israelis?

              •  to answer you question... (3+ / 0-)

                yes - but i am fairly certain that the larger implications of our agreement in this matter aren't the same.

                "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 01:56:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'll take that (5+ / 0-)

                  as a "no" or an "equal rights with a thousand caveats".

                  Have a good one.

                  •  ok. (3+ / 0-)

                    as long as we are clear that's not what i said. but i hope you have a good one too nathan.

                    "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                    by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:27:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Nope I would take it as (0+ / 0-)

                    Equal Rights minus one. Or at least my points are no Palestinian Right of Return to the Israel in a Two State solution and Hoq Ha Shvut stays. Other than that... I see no reason not to have equal rights and equal obligations including IDF service.

                    "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                    by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:29:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  This minus one (5+ / 0-)

                      means Russian Christians are allowed to immegrate to israel and Israel's native Christians, the holy and's traditional Christians, are not allowed to return to their homes.

                      Yes that's right.

                      http://www.jpost.com/...

                      Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

                      by simone daud on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:33:05 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Holy and Traditional Christians? (0+ / 0-)

                        You might have a fair amount of the world's Christian population disagreeing with you there. Not my fight though....

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:43:55 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  The Holy land's traditional Christians (5+ / 0-)

                          We are Christians of the Holy Land. The traditional dwellers of the land.

                          We have lived around the Nazareth and Jaffa areas for many centuries.

                          Our people have been ethnically cleansed to make way for Jewish migration into Israel.

                          Most of our relatives are not allowed to return to Nazareth, our cultural and spiritual capital, because they are not Jews.  Yes, because they are not Jews many languish in refugee camps (like my own relatives in Lebanon).  

                          Why are they not permitted to return to their homes?

                          In the last two decades, for us the  few Christians who remained in the holy land, our resources have been stretched by the incoming Christian Russian immigrants that Israel allowed in because they had some sort of genetic Jewish ancestors.  

                          We have wlecomed them into our Churches and the remain Christians like us. But we insist that our relatives and loved ones living in the camps be allowed to return to their homes. Why aren't they allowed to return?  

                          It doesn't make sense that a Russian Christian with one Jewish grandfather have priority to immigration over the Christian native families that have lived in the Galilee for many centuries, well before the holy land became coveted by tinpot political ideologies, and well before the Moscow Patriarchate was established.  

                          Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

                          by simone daud on Thu May 13, 2010 at 04:24:38 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  What's really ironic about this debate (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          capelza, unspeakable

                          is that since Palestinian Christians share DNA with Jews, they would also be presumed to have Jewish forebears, or at least be descendants of the many people's that lived in historic Palestine for millenia.

                          Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                          by Fire bad tree pretty on Fri May 14, 2010 at 03:24:25 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  no... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Paul in Berkeley, JNEREBEL

                      not minus anything.

                      invariably this same argument of right of return seems to get inserted into this equal-rights advocation as a sort of political trap whic has nothing to do with Israel's political or religious structure. i don't buy into it.

                      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                      by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:33:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  equal rights (5+ / 0-)

                        is a political trap?

                        Care to explain that one?

                        •  Demographic bomb argument (3+ / 0-)

                          I believe.  Or something along those lines.  

                          Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                          by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:44:29 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  please stop. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          JNEREBEL

                          equal rights aren't - but the false insertion of the right of return issue into the discussion of them is.

                          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                          by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:44:36 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  stop what? (4+ / 0-)

                            I'm not only talking of the right of return, though why you think inserting it into a discussion of equal rights is "false" really does demand an explanation. There are other issues, like the racist JNF for example, which must be dismantled.

                            It's not as though Israel is working towards equality except for the pesky issue of Palestinian refugees. Some magical two state solution which denies refugee rights and will maintain Israel as is will mean continued discrimination against Palestinians within Israel.

                          •  How.. (9+ / 0-)

                            ....is the right of return not about equal rights?

                            It is an extraordinarily important issue for the Palestinians.  As I recall, you expressed support last summer for a technocratic compromise that would allow a RoR for a capped number of refugees that wouldn't disturb Israel's Jewish majority.  As part of a negotiated political settlement where the Palestinians must walk away with something, that's fine.  But it is very much a right that they are being asked to waive.

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:51:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But don't you see (9+ / 0-)

                            ignoring the wishes of 5 million Jews is completely wrong. You should always have to take into account their concerns.

                            Taking into account the concerns of 5 million Palestinians (and all the stateless refugees in the camps), no, that's the "false insertion" of unrelated issues.

                            Get with the program. If you do not, someone will police your language.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:01:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well you got it half right (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            when you say:

                            But don't you see ignoring the wishes of 5 million Jews is completely wrong. You should always have to take into account their concerns.

                            I agree with you but you are only half right. I think taking into account the needs of 5 million Palestinians is important hence a national homeland for them as well. Two States.

                            Well at least we agree half way.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:05:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good lord. (8+ / 0-)

                            Stop boxing your own shadows. No one is even talking about one state here. I'm certainly not.

                            Land isn't the only thing Palestinians want. Until you and others understand that, you are really not taking into account the concerns of the Palestinian people. You are simply deciding for yourselves what they do and do not need.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:08:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ummm ok ... not my point but ok (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, canadian gal

                            My point was that we at least try to take into account your opinions. You guys could give a rats ass about us or what we think.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:12:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right. Exactly. (4+ / 0-)

                            That's why I support the two-state solution. Because I don't give a rat's ass about what "you" think.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:13:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Remember you... (5+ / 0-)

                            ...don't support the two state solution for the right reasons, though.  To really support the two state solution, you need to validate the birth and creation of Israel.  You need to see it the way Zionists see it.

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:17:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Again... Alec you blow me away (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL

                            thank you for recognizing the importance of the creation of Israel. I am happy and surprised to see that coming from you. And to support it.... Wow. rec'd.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:20:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wait now you support the Two State (0+ / 0-)

                            solution.... Your posts of late have been extremely negative towards it as well as saying you you used to support it but now not so much. You have me confused.

                            Where do you stand on this?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:22:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is why I keep telling you (5+ / 0-)

                            to stop boxing your own shadows. I have been very, very clear about what I support in terms of a two-state solution, but for whatever reason the I-siders refuse to understand.

                            I am not OK with anything that Israel is prepared to offer because it will result in a statelet dependent on Israeli dictats. I support a Palestinian state that has complete and total sovereignty, independence, and viability. The problem is that Israel, and not just this government, is opposed to this. I hope that opposition ends, but I'm not holding my breath.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:48:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I disagree that you have been clear (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL

                            but I am heartened by your post. So what do you think would be a fair proposal that Israel could offer?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 03:58:46 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How much clearer does he (4+ / 0-)

                            need to be?

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Fri May 14, 2010 at 09:02:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Two of the first five (4+ / 0-)

                            comments were in response to him, where I explicitly say that I support the two-state solution and he acknowledges it. Now all of a sudden, it's time to pretend that I never said it before.

                            And right now, he, canadian gal, and hikerbiker are all accusing us of supposedly distorting their views. Some effing nerve.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:51:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  YEAH.... YOU TELL ME! (0+ / 0-)

                            Hey here you are twisting my words again. Now let me demonstrate using exact quotes:

                            Two of the first five comments were in response to him, where I explicitly say that I support the two-state solution and he acknowledges it. Now all of a sudden, it's time to pretend that I never said it before (bold vb1 emphasis)

                            Here I am in this diary pretending that unspeakable never supported the Two-State solution:

                            Your posts of late have been extremely negative towards it as well as saying you you used to support it but now not so much

                            I know you used to support and apparently you still do - I just remember a post saying that your weren't so sure at this point. BUT I never said you don't support it I said lately you haven't been clear. Although I will say that soy pointed to some good quotes from 5/7 saying you do support it.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:08:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Last WEEK! (4+ / 0-)

                            I said it last week in your own fucking diary in response to you. You even acknowledged it.

                            I have been opposed to the two-state proposals that Israel keeps trying hawk, but that's always been my position.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:17:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I did acknowlegde it (0+ / 0-)

                            and I acknowledge it again. AND I DID in my last comment. For some reason, I thought I saw a comment that you made (or rec.'d) stating that while you used to be in favor of it now you were not so sure.

                            That led to my comment. If I am wrong and you did not make or rec. that comment I apologize.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:31:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And by Volley's logic... (4+ / 0-)

                            ....if you say you support something, then you support something.  No ifs, ands or buts about it.  You cannot ever be questioned on this point; indeed, the allusion to you "saying" you support the two state solution while being "extremely negative towards it" sounds almost like, I don't know, an attempt to distinguish between stated and revealed preferences? But we know that those are off limits.

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 12:30:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's what a handful of users have been doing (5+ / 0-)

                            for a while now, but especially this past week.

                            I must constantly prove that I don't want to kill or I don't want others to kill Israelis. I must constantly prove that I'm a "moderate." If I so much as uprate a comment saying that because of recent events, they no longer support a two-state solution, no matter how many times I explicitly state that I support two states, I am automatically a supporter of one state and denier of the Jewish right to a "Jewish National Homeland." If I uprate a comment talking about how Palestinians are being taught about self-defense, no matter how many times I say I want nonviolent struggle, I am accused of supporting violence against Israelis.

                            If anything has changed as some people want to claim, it's my unwillingness to deal with this bullshit anymore. That is the radical shift, I think. I, and I hope others as well, am unwilling to play nice with people who view me as a trojan horse, who constantly wonder if I'm telling the truth or deviously deceiving them.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:15:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Many wanted to believe unspeakable (5+ / 0-)

                            that you represented a kind of Palestinian they could make peace with, one who could accept Israeli terms for peace.  They misjudged you because you are kind and open.  You are a lot like Rashid Hussein.  There is a long line of history to this search for the "reasonable" Palestinian.  What they don't want to come to grips with is that we are unreasonable about giving up our human rights.

                            We are out to defeat injustice and not white persons who may be unjust. -MLK Jr.

                            by soysauce on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:27:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Drats! Foiled again (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1

                            If it weren't for you kids and that pesky dog......

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:52:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fire bad tree pretty

                            Nothing but personal attacks against people you disagree with, who have said not attacked you first.

                            No matter how many time I say I support the two-state solution, I'll always be suspect in your and others' eyes. That's how it works here. You distort my comments and even after I explain them and you acknowledge it, you uprate other distortions.

                            I am so sick of having to prove myself to you guys. Because I know no matter how many times I say otherwise, you will always come back and say I don't give a shit about Jews. So why should I continue to say that I do?

                            You and your buddies want to talk about alienation? You've all done a wonderful a job on me.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:08:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Sigh..... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1

                            Sadly all I will tell you is that I disagree but according to Alec and other Team P keyboard warriors, no matter what I say will be twisted... SO...

                            Sorry it has all worked out like this. I really am.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:20:56 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're part of the reason (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fire bad tree pretty

                            it's "worked out" this way.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:22:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And so are you. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1

                            I know the role I have played, and one thing I do think is that while things are more hostile they are more honest as well.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:23:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course I am. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fire bad tree pretty

                            But I don't pretend that I'm not, which is what you and the others on your side do.

                            I'm more honest to the constant accusations against me, yes. I'm more honest about the bullshit you and others have thrown at me. I'm more honest about not appreciating the lies that no one on my side (except for me, of course) criticizes Arab leaders. I'm more honest about taking offense with attacks on my and others' mental health. I'm more honest about not letting these ugly displays by people on your side go, including accusations that we're rightwing for supporting BDS. If that means, more hostility, fine.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:29:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well you certainly can think whatever you like (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1

                            I wish you luck in your fantasy.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:41:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And more of the same. (0+ / 0-)

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:42:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And really, (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82, Fire bad tree pretty

                            you've twisted so many people's words here, even excluding mine, that you have no right to accuse anyone else of doing the same thing. Just look at this comment, where you turn what Alec said into something about prophecy and being able to predict the future.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:39:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL wow.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1

                            First of all I was making a snarky remark around the word "revealed". Jeez do you have a sense of humor at all??? And even if it wasn't funny I would think that you can still recognize a failed snark.

                            You are twisting more than an Oklahoma Tornado man... My point to Alec is that opposing a Craptastic ASUC vote or opposing BDS is NOT the same as supporting the occupation. But, Alec keeps telling me about my "revealed" positions as if his interpretation and the truth existed in the same dimension.

                            That comment was heavy on snark and not much else but thanks for making it so much more.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:47:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You see. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82, Fire bad tree pretty

                            That wasn't what he was saying at all. I mean, not even close.

                            It was in relation to my own comments, and how you've said that if someone says they supports something, then there is no question that they support. All the while ignoring the many times that I've said that I support the two-state solution and constantly claiming I support one-state.  To be clear, I'm not offended by this claim because I don't believe the majority of people who support one state are bad. I'm offended by the dishonesty and the constant distortion/ignoring of my words

                            What you're doing isn't just humor. It's mockery of everyone who disagrees with you. And considering what you were mocking had nothing to do with what was being said, I would say there was a lot of distortion there.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:55:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow again (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1

                            sorry but I see that as something totally different than you do.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:59:30 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Amen Brother Alec.... (0+ / 0-)

                            Revealed Preferences .... is that like Revealed Prophecy? LOL - and what fine interpretation of revealed events. You truly read the signs well.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:20:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  bingo. n/t (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, canadian gal

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Thu May 13, 2010 at 10:28:24 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Seriously. (0+ / 0-)

                            I don't care what you think? That's fine.

                            Like I said, all you've been doing this week is distorting what I'm saying. If your goal was to alienate me and piss me off for the no reason over the past several days, you've accomplished it. Congratulations.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 08:43:59 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the original question was: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker

                            Do you support giving Palestinians the exact same rights as Jewish Israelis?

                            and the answer is absolutely yes. both for citizens of israel and citizens of the future state of palestine. in fact my views on human rights are pretty universal.

                            the thing of it is... i've been around enough to know that some continue to assert that somehow the right of return is about equal rights. in fact, i believe in the parent here, you have asserted this yourself. to me, this is pure fiction and as i noted above, what i believe to be a rhetorical trap.

                            equal rights, or the idea that such rights are or should be held in common by all people has nothing to do palestinians or their descendants being able to return to israel proper in a negotiated (or not) peace agreement. much like israeli rights to feeling secure via a neutered palestinian military have nothing to do with equal rights but rather an asserted demand that has very little chance of happening.

                            i do agree though that this issue is understandably meaningful to palestinians. and indeed you are correct that i do support a compromise on the right of return with mutually agreed upon numbers for both symbolic and principled reasons.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Thu May 13, 2010 at 04:42:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So in essence.. (7+ / 0-)

                            ...it is not a right, collective or individual, and by waiving it, the Palestinians waive nothing.

                            Or as you might put it, it is simply a fiction with "little chance of happening."  

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 05:03:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  i guess... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            paul was right.

                            g'day.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 08:22:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You called it a fiction. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82, Fire bad tree pretty

                            If it's fiction, it's nonexistent, it's not real.

                            Alec did not distort your words (and citing that particular user about distorting words is hilarious). You simply didn't like the way your words came off when he rephrased them.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 08:46:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  reply... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, hikerbiker, volleyboy1

                            i didn't call 'it' (the right of return) fiction. i called 'it' (the framing of the right of return as being part of equal rights) fiction. it is.

                            nor did i say or suggest that:

                            ...it is not a right, collective or individual, and by waiving it, the Palestinians waive nothing.

                            in fact, what i wrote was:

                            i do agree though that this issue is understandably meaningful to palestinians.

                            here's the thing unspeakable - up until about a couple of weeks ago, instead of assigning motives and meanings to what someone else wrote, i asked (usually politely) for clarification rather than what's gone here in recent days. due to continued attacks and hostility thrown in my direction (and from what i can observe - many others) it has made dialogue here next to impossible.

                            indeed - i, hikerbiker and others from what i can see clearly feel that what we say has no meaning to those who seek to assail us or twist our views into their narrative. perhaps when there is no one left on the pro-i side (and it seems that this is the case) who is considered reasonable are considered worthy of working with, there is a serious problem.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:04:49 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (5+ / 0-)

                            equal rights, or the idea that such rights are or should be held in common by all people has nothing to do palestinians or their descendants being able to return to israel proper in a negotiated (or not) peace agreement. much like israeli rights to feeling secure via a neutered palestinian military have nothing to do with equal rights but rather an asserted demand that has very little chance of happening.

                            Indeed, the right of return, impacting as it does on immigration, is not precisely "the idea that such rights are or should be held in common by all people," as it necessarily impacts only those who were ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorists acting on behalf of the nascent state of Israel in 1948.  So naturally, the right to live in one's homeland does not attach to current residents of Israel descended from the Jewish European colonists, refugees and original inhabitants of the Mandate.  

                            Nevertheless, it is not merely an "asserted demand that has very little chance of happening."  It is not an "asserted demand" at all, any more than the Israeli right to live in peace and security is an "asserted demand."  It is an actual right.

                            Your attempts to play with the language notwithstanding, it is very clear, in the cavalier way that you, Volleyboy1 and many others treat the right of return, that it means nothing to you and you regard it as an unreasonable "asserted demand" of the Palestinians that simply exists to frustrate the Jewish demand that their expulsion of a substantial percentage of the indigenous be validated by those descended from the refugees.  It is as noxious as your passive aggressive observations that supporters of the two state compromise do not support it for the "correct" reasons.  

                            You can pretend otherwise, but everyone sees right through it.  It bleeds off of the posts.  And as for this:

                            perhaps when there is no one left on the pro-i side (and it seems that this is the case) who is considered reasonable are considered worthy of working with, there is a serious problem.

                            Indeed there is; the problem, I would suggest, lies with the neo-volkists and their support of the colonial enterprise known as the "peace process." The center is indeed shifting, and only some of the participants here will find themselves on the right (or Left, as the case may be) side of the line.

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:19:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah Alec (0+ / 0-)

                            you never try to put words in our mouths....

                            Your attempts to play with the language notwithstanding, it is very clear, in the cavalier way that you, Volleyboy1 and many others treat the right of return, that it means nothing to you and you regard it as an unreasonable "asserted demand" of the Palestinians that simply exists to frustrate the Jewish demand that their expulsion of a substantial percentage of the indigenous be validated by those descended from the refugees.  It is as noxious as your passive aggressive observations that supporters of the two state compromise do not support it for the "correct" reasons.

                             

                            Could you possibly be more wrong here. Oh wait... in your mind you can't, you know exactly what we are thinking. Again truly I am impressed with your psychic abilities. Or actually I would be if you had a fucking clue.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:34:45 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I would like to take the time.. (6+ / 0-)

                            ...to carefully respond with the attention your comment so clearly deserves, but I have a meeting with a Demographic Time Bomb.  It will have to wait.

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:39:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh tell it I say hi (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            canadian gal

                            By the way, if you could make up some more crap about our intentions or twist our words just a bit more I would greatly appreciate it.

                            thanks for doing what you do best.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:46:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82

                            you do such a good job. Why shouldn't Alec join in the fun?

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:53:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  He should I encourage you all (0+ / 0-)

                            to this. Oh wait you are all doing it already.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:09:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're doing it volleyboy1. (3+ / 0-)

                            You and others have been making unfounded accusations against me all week. You've attacked my mental health and you've accused me lying and distorting your views. You've accused me of dismissing the views of Israelis. You've made every accusation against me under the sun, short of antisemitism.

                            And now, when Alec brings up your views on Palestinian demographics, you get upset. Whatever.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:13:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh spare me the dramatics I did not (0+ / 0-)

                            question your mental health. I made a cutting sarcastic remark (a remark that I make and friends make to each other all the time - and I don't think they are insane liars either) though I did say I thought you were hallucinating about what I said.

                            I cannot ever see accusing you of anti-Semitism as I don't for one minute (or even one second) think you are anti-Semitic.

                            As for demography - I am not upset by Alec's comment. It's just a pain in ass to have to counter his crap all the time. But really we do what we must.

                            Bottom line - you think you are just paddling along these diaries and debates fine. But from our perspective the Pro-P side has changed radically. Of course you would probably (but not for sure) say the same thing about us. So how do we stop it rather than keep it going.

                            Many of us have decided to stop "taking it" and stand up for our beliefs. Maybe you see things the same way from a different side. Maybe that is more honest. Maybe it is better.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:26:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, (3+ / 0-)

                            this is what you guys do. Every time someone disagrees with you, you say we've gone off the rails or are hallucinating or are mental patients. This past week has been nothing but distortions of what I'm saying by you and those on your side.

                            Just look in this diary. Without any cause or reason, you accuse me of not giving a crap what Jews think.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:53:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ah the mind reels (5+ / 0-)

                            As for demography - I am not upset by Alec's comment. It's just a pain in ass to have to counter his crap all the time. But really we do what we must.

                            It must sting someone to be confronted with the harsh realities of their ethnocentrism.

                            What I find so frustrating about this conversation is that any of these participants would recognize the toxins being spewed were it not for the fact that the persons being referred to were Palestinian.  Volley wants to believe that concern for the ethnic integrity of a state is not akin to the Afrikaner experience, that referring to the right of return as "demographic suicide" for Israel is somehow innocuous and inoffensive.  When finally called on it (and I think that we can agree that I've rarely, if ever, expressed my feelings on this point), I am somehow being offensive and hurtful.

                            Yeah, those days are over.  There's no point in communicating pleasantries with participants who cannot recognize the limits of their own perspective.  At least some of us try; I'm hardly a shining example of civility, but I don't know how in the hell you have done it for all this time.  

                            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                            by Alec82 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 12:26:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And I've repeatedly (4+ / 0-)

                            had my own views distorted and mocked. And let's not forget your own attempt to police people's politics here, where you decided that the reasons for my support of the two-state solution aren't good enough, for which you were called out by several people.

                            Let's be quite clear, contrary to your assertions that this is all coming from the pro-Palestinian side, if there's distortion going on, you guys are at the very least equally to blame.

                            And as for the right of return, since the government of Israel grants it as a right to Jewish people, then it is a matter of equal rights. If you believe in equal rights, you cannot support giving one ethnic group certain privileges and deny another those same privileges based on nothing but their ethnicity.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:36:58 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  right. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            and so it continues. as to this:

                            And I've repeatedly (3+ / 0-)
                            had my own views distorted and mocked. And let's not forget your own attempt to police people's politics here, where you decided that the reasons for my support of the two-state solution aren't good enough, for which you were called out by several people.

                            firstly - i am sorry to hear that your views are being distorted and mocked. it sucks. i know how you feel since usually when it happens to me, there is a somewhat large group uprating suck falsehoods and attacks.

                            as to the other part of this, i call bullshit. i didn't accuse you of anything - i made an obnoxious remark about how i observed the views here generally. as to this 'policing' people's politics... this is a political blog no? stating my views is well within the rules. no matter how you, or others, choose to characterize the way i do so.

                            and your continued support of alec's repugnant distortions in this thread tell me all i need to know about your concern in this conversation. no matter, if recs mean anything - you win!

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:32:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HEY! I rec.d you (0+ / 0-)

                            doesn't that mean something??? ;-0 My feewings arez hurtz.....

                            But you know what you need.... a big "AMEN cg"... Now you have your own "amen" corner. That's how it works. Anything you say no matter how odious gets a hearty "AMEN", now doesn't that make you feel wanted?

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:49:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  your support... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                            is appreciated vb. and my feelings of being wanted or not is entirely besides the point - this whole cult of personality cultivated here creeps me out anyway : )

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:08:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow, (0+ / 0-)

                            coming from the person who uprated this comment about me and this reconfirmation of it, you have some serious donkey balls on you with this comment.

                            Seriously, you are uprating lies about me and want to talk about Alec's supposedly repugnant comments.

                            Well, I call bullshit on you and everything you've ever claimed about being a "moderate" and "neutral." You are anything but. I can go on and on about the level of contribution that you provide, but I think I'll just stop with pointing out your hypocrisy.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:59:09 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  let's see.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL

                            you mention upthread that just because you uprate comments that state support for one-state doesn't necessarily mean that your support one-state, yet i uprate a comment that includes this:

                            Ummm ok ... not my point but ok (2+ / 0-)
                            My point was that we at least try to take into account your opinions.

                            and you assume its about you - again. but i am extremely interested in hearing more about this:

                            Well, I call bullshit on you and everything you've ever claimed about being a "moderate" and "neutral." You are anything but. I can go on and on about the level of contribution that you provide,

                            please, go on.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:12:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I see you're adding obfuscation (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Fire bad tree pretty

                            to your repertoire of moderation and neutrality.

                            Why is it that you don't provide the entire quote from that comment, canadian gal? Is it because of your vaunted moderation, your vaunted neutrality or both?

                            Let's look at the whole thing, shall we?

                            Ummm ok ... not my point but ok (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, canadian gal
                            My point was that we at least try to take into account your opinions. You guys could give a rats ass about us or what we think.

                            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                            by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 05:12:27 PM CDT
                            [ Parent | Reply to This | RecommendHide ]

                            Do you think in a response to me, the use of the phrase you guys excludes me? Really? I'm pretty sure that's not a quirk of Canadian English, but I could be wrong. Do explain how that comment doesn't refer to me. As you know, I'm all ears when it comes to issues of linguistics.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:36:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  obfuscation.... (0+ / 0-)

                            much as my participation in these threads clearly illustrates my being a glutton for punishment, i think this will be the last reply in my repertoire of moderation and neutrality here. as i have no interest in the continued mocking and insults.

                            as you mentioned elsewhere in the thread, you uprated a comment because you agreed with a part of it, but not necessarily all. as did i.

                            "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                            by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 06:36:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh please. (0+ / 0-)

                            First of all, we don't even know what the comment is that I uprated, since vb never linked to it.

                            Second, vb's comment was not a statement about his beliefs or preferences or policy positions. It was an attack on me and others. It's a completely different class of comment from what I was talking about.

                            If you're OK with uprating comments containing false attacks and distortions of what I'm saying, that's fine. It happens here. We're not friends after all. But don't turn around and fault me for uprating Alec's comments or complain about your own comments being distorted by others.

                            Let's be perfectly clear here: you've been doing your own share of attacking and uprating of attacks.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 06:45:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And while I'm at it, (0+ / 0-)

                            I should also mention that you claimed vb's comment wasn't about me and attempted to prove so by posting a part of the comment. The reason I posted the whole thing was because you left out the sentence that clearly showed that the comment was very much directed at me and others.

                            And let's be frank, you asked me to go on about how you are not neutral, as you claim. Well, the fact that you're ok with attacks on me and other pro-Palestinian participants (hell, sometimes there worthy of your support) while being extra-sensitive towards any attack, fair or not, against the pro-I participants is just proof of that.

                            Face it, vb's was a comment that attacked me for not giving a crap about Jews. Apparently you don't find that dishonest enough for you to avoid uprating it.

                            It doesn't matter if you read this or respond to it or not. This is for the record.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 06:53:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And you have a lot of nerve (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Alec82, Fire bad tree pretty

                            saying that when you uprate comments accusing me of not caring about what the other side thinks.

                            Pull the plank out of your eye before you comment on the speck in someone else's.

                            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 08:51:51 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Then you and I disagree (0+ / 0-)

                        on that. My wrong..... as to Simone - I would say Russian Christians should not have that right under Hoq Ha Shvut. If they do, then that in my opinion is wrong.

                        "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                        by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 02:42:45 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

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