Skip to main content

View Diary: A Possible Opening for U.S. Peace Efforts in the Middle East (205 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  You called it a fiction. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Alec82, Fire bad tree pretty

    If it's fiction, it's nonexistent, it's not real.

    Alec did not distort your words (and citing that particular user about distorting words is hilarious). You simply didn't like the way your words came off when he rephrased them.

    Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

    by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 08:46:47 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  reply... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JNEREBEL, hikerbiker, volleyboy1

      i didn't call 'it' (the right of return) fiction. i called 'it' (the framing of the right of return as being part of equal rights) fiction. it is.

      nor did i say or suggest that:

      ...it is not a right, collective or individual, and by waiving it, the Palestinians waive nothing.

      in fact, what i wrote was:

      i do agree though that this issue is understandably meaningful to palestinians.

      here's the thing unspeakable - up until about a couple of weeks ago, instead of assigning motives and meanings to what someone else wrote, i asked (usually politely) for clarification rather than what's gone here in recent days. due to continued attacks and hostility thrown in my direction (and from what i can observe - many others) it has made dialogue here next to impossible.

      indeed - i, hikerbiker and others from what i can see clearly feel that what we say has no meaning to those who seek to assail us or twist our views into their narrative. perhaps when there is no one left on the pro-i side (and it seems that this is the case) who is considered reasonable are considered worthy of working with, there is a serious problem.

      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

      by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:04:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf (5+ / 0-)

        equal rights, or the idea that such rights are or should be held in common by all people has nothing to do palestinians or their descendants being able to return to israel proper in a negotiated (or not) peace agreement. much like israeli rights to feeling secure via a neutered palestinian military have nothing to do with equal rights but rather an asserted demand that has very little chance of happening.

        Indeed, the right of return, impacting as it does on immigration, is not precisely "the idea that such rights are or should be held in common by all people," as it necessarily impacts only those who were ethnically cleansed by Jewish terrorists acting on behalf of the nascent state of Israel in 1948.  So naturally, the right to live in one's homeland does not attach to current residents of Israel descended from the Jewish European colonists, refugees and original inhabitants of the Mandate.  

        Nevertheless, it is not merely an "asserted demand that has very little chance of happening."  It is not an "asserted demand" at all, any more than the Israeli right to live in peace and security is an "asserted demand."  It is an actual right.

        Your attempts to play with the language notwithstanding, it is very clear, in the cavalier way that you, Volleyboy1 and many others treat the right of return, that it means nothing to you and you regard it as an unreasonable "asserted demand" of the Palestinians that simply exists to frustrate the Jewish demand that their expulsion of a substantial percentage of the indigenous be validated by those descended from the refugees.  It is as noxious as your passive aggressive observations that supporters of the two state compromise do not support it for the "correct" reasons.  

        You can pretend otherwise, but everyone sees right through it.  It bleeds off of the posts.  And as for this:

        perhaps when there is no one left on the pro-i side (and it seems that this is the case) who is considered reasonable are considered worthy of working with, there is a serious problem.

        Indeed there is; the problem, I would suggest, lies with the neo-volkists and their support of the colonial enterprise known as the "peace process." The center is indeed shifting, and only some of the participants here will find themselves on the right (or Left, as the case may be) side of the line.

        Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

        by Alec82 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:19:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah Alec (0+ / 0-)

          you never try to put words in our mouths....

          Your attempts to play with the language notwithstanding, it is very clear, in the cavalier way that you, Volleyboy1 and many others treat the right of return, that it means nothing to you and you regard it as an unreasonable "asserted demand" of the Palestinians that simply exists to frustrate the Jewish demand that their expulsion of a substantial percentage of the indigenous be validated by those descended from the refugees.  It is as noxious as your passive aggressive observations that supporters of the two state compromise do not support it for the "correct" reasons.

           

          Could you possibly be more wrong here. Oh wait... in your mind you can't, you know exactly what we are thinking. Again truly I am impressed with your psychic abilities. Or actually I would be if you had a fucking clue.

          "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

          by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:34:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I would like to take the time.. (6+ / 0-)

            ...to carefully respond with the attention your comment so clearly deserves, but I have a meeting with a Demographic Time Bomb.  It will have to wait.

            Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

            by Alec82 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:39:56 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh tell it I say hi (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              canadian gal

              By the way, if you could make up some more crap about our intentions or twist our words just a bit more I would greatly appreciate it.

              thanks for doing what you do best.

              "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

              by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:46:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Alec82

                you do such a good job. Why shouldn't Alec join in the fun?

                Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:53:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  He should I encourage you all (0+ / 0-)

                  to this. Oh wait you are all doing it already.

                  "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                  by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:09:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're doing it volleyboy1. (3+ / 0-)

                    You and others have been making unfounded accusations against me all week. You've attacked my mental health and you've accused me lying and distorting your views. You've accused me of dismissing the views of Israelis. You've made every accusation against me under the sun, short of antisemitism.

                    And now, when Alec brings up your views on Palestinian demographics, you get upset. Whatever.

                    Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                    by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:13:56 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Oh spare me the dramatics I did not (0+ / 0-)

                      question your mental health. I made a cutting sarcastic remark (a remark that I make and friends make to each other all the time - and I don't think they are insane liars either) though I did say I thought you were hallucinating about what I said.

                      I cannot ever see accusing you of anti-Semitism as I don't for one minute (or even one second) think you are anti-Semitic.

                      As for demography - I am not upset by Alec's comment. It's just a pain in ass to have to counter his crap all the time. But really we do what we must.

                      Bottom line - you think you are just paddling along these diaries and debates fine. But from our perspective the Pro-P side has changed radically. Of course you would probably (but not for sure) say the same thing about us. So how do we stop it rather than keep it going.

                      Many of us have decided to stop "taking it" and stand up for our beliefs. Maybe you see things the same way from a different side. Maybe that is more honest. Maybe it is better.

                      "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                      by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:26:58 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No, (3+ / 0-)

                        this is what you guys do. Every time someone disagrees with you, you say we've gone off the rails or are hallucinating or are mental patients. This past week has been nothing but distortions of what I'm saying by you and those on your side.

                        Just look in this diary. Without any cause or reason, you accuse me of not giving a crap what Jews think.

                        Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                        by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 11:53:28 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Ah the mind reels (5+ / 0-)

                          As for demography - I am not upset by Alec's comment. It's just a pain in ass to have to counter his crap all the time. But really we do what we must.

                          It must sting someone to be confronted with the harsh realities of their ethnocentrism.

                          What I find so frustrating about this conversation is that any of these participants would recognize the toxins being spewed were it not for the fact that the persons being referred to were Palestinian.  Volley wants to believe that concern for the ethnic integrity of a state is not akin to the Afrikaner experience, that referring to the right of return as "demographic suicide" for Israel is somehow innocuous and inoffensive.  When finally called on it (and I think that we can agree that I've rarely, if ever, expressed my feelings on this point), I am somehow being offensive and hurtful.

                          Yeah, those days are over.  There's no point in communicating pleasantries with participants who cannot recognize the limits of their own perspective.  At least some of us try; I'm hardly a shining example of civility, but I don't know how in the hell you have done it for all this time.  

                          Policy, Peace and Progress Before Party

                          by Alec82 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 12:26:31 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

      •  And I've repeatedly (4+ / 0-)

        had my own views distorted and mocked. And let's not forget your own attempt to police people's politics here, where you decided that the reasons for my support of the two-state solution aren't good enough, for which you were called out by several people.

        Let's be quite clear, contrary to your assertions that this is all coming from the pro-Palestinian side, if there's distortion going on, you guys are at the very least equally to blame.

        And as for the right of return, since the government of Israel grants it as a right to Jewish people, then it is a matter of equal rights. If you believe in equal rights, you cannot support giving one ethnic group certain privileges and deny another those same privileges based on nothing but their ethnicity.

        Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

        by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 10:36:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  right. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

          and so it continues. as to this:

          And I've repeatedly (3+ / 0-)
          had my own views distorted and mocked. And let's not forget your own attempt to police people's politics here, where you decided that the reasons for my support of the two-state solution aren't good enough, for which you were called out by several people.

          firstly - i am sorry to hear that your views are being distorted and mocked. it sucks. i know how you feel since usually when it happens to me, there is a somewhat large group uprating suck falsehoods and attacks.

          as to the other part of this, i call bullshit. i didn't accuse you of anything - i made an obnoxious remark about how i observed the views here generally. as to this 'policing' people's politics... this is a political blog no? stating my views is well within the rules. no matter how you, or others, choose to characterize the way i do so.

          and your continued support of alec's repugnant distortions in this thread tell me all i need to know about your concern in this conversation. no matter, if recs mean anything - you win!

          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:32:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  HEY! I rec.d you (0+ / 0-)

            doesn't that mean something??? ;-0 My feewings arez hurtz.....

            But you know what you need.... a big "AMEN cg"... Now you have your own "amen" corner. That's how it works. Anything you say no matter how odious gets a hearty "AMEN", now doesn't that make you feel wanted?

            "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

            by volleyboy1 on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:49:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  your support... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

              is appreciated vb. and my feelings of being wanted or not is entirely besides the point - this whole cult of personality cultivated here creeps me out anyway : )

              "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

              by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:08:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Wow, (0+ / 0-)

            coming from the person who uprated this comment about me and this reconfirmation of it, you have some serious donkey balls on you with this comment.

            Seriously, you are uprating lies about me and want to talk about Alec's supposedly repugnant comments.

            Well, I call bullshit on you and everything you've ever claimed about being a "moderate" and "neutral." You are anything but. I can go on and on about the level of contribution that you provide, but I think I'll just stop with pointing out your hypocrisy.

            Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

            by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 01:59:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  let's see.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JNEREBEL

              you mention upthread that just because you uprate comments that state support for one-state doesn't necessarily mean that your support one-state, yet i uprate a comment that includes this:

              Ummm ok ... not my point but ok (2+ / 0-)
              My point was that we at least try to take into account your opinions.

              and you assume its about you - again. but i am extremely interested in hearing more about this:

              Well, I call bullshit on you and everything you've ever claimed about being a "moderate" and "neutral." You are anything but. I can go on and on about the level of contribution that you provide,

              please, go on.

              "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

              by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:12:25 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I see you're adding obfuscation (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Fire bad tree pretty

                to your repertoire of moderation and neutrality.

                Why is it that you don't provide the entire quote from that comment, canadian gal? Is it because of your vaunted moderation, your vaunted neutrality or both?

                Let's look at the whole thing, shall we?

                Ummm ok ... not my point but ok (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                hikerbiker, canadian gal
                My point was that we at least try to take into account your opinions. You guys could give a rats ass about us or what we think.

                "No Groin.... No Krav Maga" - The Simpsons

                by volleyboy1 on Thu May 13, 2010 at 05:12:27 PM CDT
                [ Parent | Reply to This | RecommendHide ]

                Do you think in a response to me, the use of the phrase you guys excludes me? Really? I'm pretty sure that's not a quirk of Canadian English, but I could be wrong. Do explain how that comment doesn't refer to me. As you know, I'm all ears when it comes to issues of linguistics.

                Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 02:36:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  obfuscation.... (0+ / 0-)

                  much as my participation in these threads clearly illustrates my being a glutton for punishment, i think this will be the last reply in my repertoire of moderation and neutrality here. as i have no interest in the continued mocking and insults.

                  as you mentioned elsewhere in the thread, you uprated a comment because you agreed with a part of it, but not necessarily all. as did i.

                  "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

                  by canadian gal on Fri May 14, 2010 at 06:36:27 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oh please. (0+ / 0-)

                    First of all, we don't even know what the comment is that I uprated, since vb never linked to it.

                    Second, vb's comment was not a statement about his beliefs or preferences or policy positions. It was an attack on me and others. It's a completely different class of comment from what I was talking about.

                    If you're OK with uprating comments containing false attacks and distortions of what I'm saying, that's fine. It happens here. We're not friends after all. But don't turn around and fault me for uprating Alec's comments or complain about your own comments being distorted by others.

                    Let's be perfectly clear here: you've been doing your own share of attacking and uprating of attacks.

                    Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                    by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 06:45:31 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  And while I'm at it, (0+ / 0-)

                    I should also mention that you claimed vb's comment wasn't about me and attempted to prove so by posting a part of the comment. The reason I posted the whole thing was because you left out the sentence that clearly showed that the comment was very much directed at me and others.

                    And let's be frank, you asked me to go on about how you are not neutral, as you claim. Well, the fact that you're ok with attacks on me and other pro-Palestinian participants (hell, sometimes there worthy of your support) while being extra-sensitive towards any attack, fair or not, against the pro-I participants is just proof of that.

                    Face it, vb's was a comment that attacked me for not giving a crap about Jews. Apparently you don't find that dishonest enough for you to avoid uprating it.

                    It doesn't matter if you read this or respond to it or not. This is for the record.

                    Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

                    by unspeakable on Fri May 14, 2010 at 06:53:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site