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View Diary: "Barack Obama is taking everybody away" says little girl to first lady (98 comments)

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  •  You're In Luck (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jlms qkw, commonmass

    Until I see middle-class Arizonans and Tea Party activists who are out of work actively seeking lower-than-minimum-wage jobs cleaning offices and private homes and picking tomatoes, grapes and strawberries

    'Cause you won't need to look any further than Pro's Ranch Market. Now I know these aren't 'lower-than-minimum-wage jobs' ... but we do what we can.

    <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

    by superscalar on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:08:58 PM PDT

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    •  I am underemployed. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CherryTheTart, Othniel Kenaz

      And I have never considered that there is a single job that is "beneath me". And I applaud this. Here's the dilemma:

      Americans have grown accustomed to cheap labor. They have, actually, grown accustomed to illegal, sub-minimum wage labor. It presents itself in terms of consumer prices.

      If, tomorrow, we were able to eliminate all undocumented workers in agriculture and meatpacking, and replace them with workers who would be suject to minimum wage laws, many food prices would skyrocket.

      Now, I am an adovate of minimum wages. And higher prices for produce, if it means fair working conditions and fair wages.

      What I am saying is that many of the people who are so gung-ho to stamp out undocumented workers in this country are not prepared to pay 7 dollars a head for lettuce.

      I congratulate Indiemcemopants on his Netroots Nation scholarship!

      by commonmass on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:14:50 PM PDT

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      •  You're Wrong (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        commonmass, thethinveil

        If, tomorrow, we were able to eliminate all undocumented workers in agriculture and meatpacking, and replace them with workers who would be suject to minimum wage laws, many food prices would skyrocket

        Illegal immigrants make up about five percent of the U.S. workforce. Beyond that, I'm sure that there were many people in the Antebellum South who had the very same opinion about slavery.

        What I am saying is that many of the people who are so gung-ho to stamp out undocumented workers in this country are not prepared to pay 7 dollars a head for lettuce.

        Read How Much Is That Tomato In The Window ... and yes ... the site is CIS, because the original article at the University of Iowa no longer allows one to download the publication free.

        <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

        by superscalar on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:23:02 PM PDT

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        •  I then stand corrected (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          thethinveil

          however: if only five percent of our workforce is undocumented, why, in general, is this an issue for the right?

          I am not advocating any kind of permanent underclass in this country. Which is why I opposed Bush's "guest worker" proposal. (Plus, I found the his use of this term chilling: it was also used by the Nazis to describe slave labor in the Third Reich and is still used in Germany for legal immigrants from non-EU countries like Turkey who have no hope for citizenship despite legal presence for, in some cases, a couple of generations).

          What I am trying to do is make the argument which would be the natural one from to be made by actual conservatives. And, as you point out, it's not a great one.

          Do know that in that previous post about the 7 dollar lettuce, I'm trying to make what should be their natural point, not mine.

          I believe in compensation proportional to one's contribution to the means of production. Meaning, essentially, I take a Marxist view on labor.

          I should have been clearer.

          I congratulate Indiemcemopants on his Netroots Nation scholarship!

          by commonmass on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:30:06 PM PDT

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          •  The Same Reason It Is An Issue For The Left (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass

            why, in general, is this an issue for the right

            Political power and money. Lots of political power and lots of money.

            When all else fails, or you can't figure out the 'why', always follow the power and the money.

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:32:38 PM PDT

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        •  Regardless of whether this is true (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          burrow owl, commonmass

          What is really the point? Illegal aliens don't have much effect on US wages except for the demographic of high school dropouts. I say let them stay and work if they want, just don't reward them with handouts and goodies.

          •  The Issue Of Illegal Immigration Goes Far Beyond (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            commonmass

            Illegal aliens don't have much effect on US wages except for the demographic of high school dropouts

            Wage depression, and you can't tell me what effect illegal immigration has on wages, because you can't even tell me how many illegal immigrants  are in the country to begin with.

            All estimates on wage depression caused by illegal immigration are estimates, based upon census data and the current population survey.

            <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

            by superscalar on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:43:31 PM PDT

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          •  I am not familiar with (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Othniel Kenaz

            the effect on HS dropout rates. I do know that when I taught school in Houston, Texas, a certain number of my students were the children of undocumented persons. What I found, especially in a few cases where I knew for sure that their parents were undocumented, these kids worked very hard.

            I live in what is, I believe, the "whitest" state in the US, Maine. And I can tell you, the number of HS dropouts and persons on the dole is pretty high. Not to mention the rampant proliferation of Meth in the area in which I live.

            What I think lots of people forget is that when many of second and third and fourth generation Americans take into consideration the fact that we had very open borders when our ancestors immigrated, many of us would not be here if legal immigration to the US were as restricted then as it is now.

            I congratulate Indiemcemopants on his Netroots Nation scholarship!

            by commonmass on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:45:07 PM PDT

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            •  Ok (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              burrow owl, commonmass

              I was not actually saying that illegal aliens affected the high school dropout rate. What I meant was that the wages of US high school dropouts, much more than other groups in the United States, are lowered significantly due to competition with illegal aliens.

              It's true that many of us would not be here if immigration were as restricted as it is now. But there's no obligation to repeat the past today. We must decide our own fate.

          •  I'd also like to add (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            esquimaux, CuriousBoston

            that "handouts" and "goodies" are difficult for native born US citizens to get, and almost impossible for a single man to get. (Trust me, I know, I'm in a position these days that I have had to check that out).

            I would, however, agree with the Governor of Massachusetts, that the children of undocumented immigrants who complete HS with the same GPA as citizens should be eligible to attend the colleges and universities of the Commonwealth with the same subsidies that citizens receive.

            Why? I don't believe in visiting the sins of the parents upon the progeny. And, frankly, these kids are a boon to our economy and our nation. Secondly, many of them were born here. What would they do, being deported with their parents to a country where, in some very real cases, they do not even speak the language?

            I guess I don't take the law-and-order view of dealing with immigration. Lots of people, citizens, with lots of money, skirt around laws with impunity. When I see 10 thousand Bernie Madoffs in jail, I'll buy the argument "don't reward illegal immigrants for breaking the law".

            I congratulate Indiemcemopants on his Netroots Nation scholarship!

            by commonmass on Thu May 20, 2010 at 04:53:01 PM PDT

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            •  Link? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              commonmass

              And, frankly, these kids are a boon to our economy and our nation.

              I'm sure they contribute to GDP increase, but is the rise in GDP enough to overcome the expenditures on them?

              •  Unfortunately, (3+ / 0-)

                I am on dial-up in a rural community in Maine. It is difficult for me to multi-task on line. Perhaps you can find something.

                With all do respect, why do I feel that I am arguing with conservative Democrats here?

                If, as has been previously posted, five percent of the workforce is undocumented, and it doesn't significantly contribute to lowering wages, and it's nearly impossible to get public assistance if you're "illegal", is this even a topic of debate?

                BTW, many undocumented workers pay taxes.

                I congratulate Indiemcemopants on his Netroots Nation scholarship!

                by commonmass on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:32:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's Not Impossible To Get Public Assistance (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  commonmass, Othniel Kenaz

                  and it's nearly impossible to get public assistance if you're "illegal"

                  WIC, school lunch programs, school breakfast programs, subsidized day care, health care, pre-natal care, etc., there are a lot of programs which do not care about the immigration status of those applying.

                  Beyond this, once the illegal immigrant has a U.S. born child, the parents, thru that child is eligible for a whole host of public assistance.

                  why do I feel that I am arguing with conservative Democrats

                  I would consider myself both a democrat (small d) and an economic nationalist, and I have no real problem saying so.

                  <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

                  by superscalar on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:39:58 PM PDT

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            •  From The Public Policy Institute Of California (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              commonmass

              And, frankly, these kids are a boon to our economy and our nation

              Falling Behind or Moving Up? The Intergenerational Progress of Mexican Americans

              They discovered that third-generation Mexican-Americans were no more likely to finish high school than second-generation Mexican-Americans. Fourth-generation Mexican-Americans did no better than third.

              <div style="font-size:10px;text-align:center;background-color:#ffd;color:#f33">If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

              by superscalar on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:19:18 PM PDT

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              •  How likely are they to complete (0+ / 0-)

                HS compared to other groups? In other states? This almost sounds like an argument we wouldn't actually want to make....

                I congratulate Indiemcemopants on his Netroots Nation scholarship!

                by commonmass on Thu May 20, 2010 at 05:34:18 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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