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View Diary: I Study Homophobia (234 comments)

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  •  Drew, you may find this an interesting data point (1+ / 0-)
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    psychodrew

    My wife and I have a lot of gay friends, and the gossip this past weekend is that one of them has been occasionally having sex with women.  He's been striking out on dates, but has been getting hit on by women who think he's straight.  And apparently a couple times a month he plays along and has a one night stand.

    Now I'm the "whatever floats your boat" type.  I don't know if that makes him bi and don't really care, it's none of my business.  But our other gay friends were, well disgusted is a good word for how they felt about it.  I mean, one of the guys finds vaginas to be revolting and can't imagine having sex with a woman.

    I was a bit surprised by it, and I wonder if you've run your study with gay men?  Do some men just find whatever they don't like to be disgusting, regardless of what it is?

    •  If I had to guess (2+ / 0-)
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      Norm in Chicago, Kysen

      I would say that this actually a little bit of anti-bisexual bias.  Anti-bisexual bias is an issue.  It doesn't get spoken about, but it's definitely there.

      It makes sense that they might find vaginas disgusting (I find them unappealing, but not disgusting).  But on the other hand, disgust is a weird emotion.  It is very different from anger in that anger is a reasoned emotion.  Something angers you because somebody was harmed or betrayed.  You learn when to express anger differently from when to express disgust.  Something disgusts you because it's disgusting.  We learn through association (like Pavlov's dogs) what is disgusting and what is not.  And we just know that it is.  We're not sure why, but we know that it is.  A part of me wonders how your friends "learned" that vaginas are disgusting in the same way that we "learned" that poop and butt holes are disgusting.  Interesting.

      I just have to say that I can't believe I wrote poop, vagina, and butt hole in a comment on Daily Kos.  What a fun day!

      The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

      by psychodrew on Mon Jun 14, 2010 at 03:18:19 PM PDT

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      •  where that comes from: "bi = bye-bye!" (1+ / 0-)
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        psychodrew

        From my experience (gay male here), bi guys are unreliable as prospective partners or even long-term boyfriends, precisely because they would have to do something-other-than-monogamy in order to fulfill their desire for relationships with both men and women.  That "something" could be having two relationships at the same time (thus a risk of leaving one for the other), or having one relationship after another (thus the same risk).  

        In addition to whatever "pressure to defect" ("Go out with me, I'm better than he is!") may come from other gay men, there is also the same pressure coming from women.  That doubles the degree of competitive pressure brought to bear on the relationship, and doubles the risk they'll defect on the relationship.  

        The shorthand for that is, "bi = bye-bye!

        As far as I'm concerned, I have more than enough competition in my work life, and I sure as hell don't need it or want it in my personal life.  For which reason I regard bi guys as "out of range" for romantic interest.  I respect and support their right to whatever consenting adult relationships they choose, and full equality under the law, but they're as out of range for me as if their politics or other significant interests were substantially different to mine.

        •  Interesting. (1+ / 0-)
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          G2geek

          I've never dated a bisexual.  It's amazing how even though we are all "sexual minorities," our experiences as sexual minorities are so different.

          The few, the proud, the Pro-Israel Kossaks.

          by psychodrew on Mon Jun 14, 2010 at 07:26:37 PM PDT

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          •  But the prejudices are still based in misogyny (0+ / 0-)

            Technically, I'm bisexual, though because I'm in a monogamous relationship with a woman society has deemed me a lesbian. I've been in long-term committed relationships with both men and women.  In my experience (my anecdata, I show you it), the sexual aspect of the relationships were similar in that I was committed to monogamy no matter the gender of the partner I was with. The only difference was that the men I was with would occasionally try to get me to agree to a threesome with another woman on the pretext of "don't you miss girls?" when really, they just wanted double the boobs. Which fits more into a study of misogyny than prejudice against sexual minorities.

            I've never been told by a man that he wouldn't date me because I'm bisexual. In fact, upon hearing that I'm bi, MORE men approach me. Take a wild guess as to why. Women, on the other hand, have refused me even a phone number because of it. Members of both groups who have these attitudes seem to have this assumption that bisexual people are sexually ravenous, promiscuous, and unable to be faithful to just one partner. When that is applied to bisexual women, there's a whole extra helping of slut-shaming going on from both men and women.

            When are you going to understand that being normal is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage. - Practical Magic

            by Keori on Mon Jun 14, 2010 at 08:49:20 PM PDT

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            •  i don't think of bi as ravenous.... (0+ / 0-)

              ... but I've heard that stereotype before.  I've also heard of guys who fantasize about threesomes with two gals, for all the reasons you cite, basically boiling down to "double your pleasure, double your fun!" to quote the old chewing gum ad slogan.  

              I don't think of bisexuals as any less faithful, as such.  Same degree of faithfulness, in the face of double the number of people who attempt to subvert the existing relationship, results in a greater likelihood of the relationship being subverted.

              If twice as many people started telling you that the person you're presently involved with isn't as good as they are, it would become more and more likely that their persuasion would succeed over time.  

              And the real solution to all of this is for people to respect existing relationships, or at least if there really is something to criticize, remove themselves from the position of being able to benefit as a result.  For example, "Your present partner is abusing you; I think you should dump them; and I'll remove myself from the list of possible replacements in order to make sure that you understand that this remark is motivated by real altruism rather than selfish interests."

              •  I sum it up like this: (0+ / 0-)

                Being bi doesn't mean I want to do everything that walks. It just means that who I love isn't restricted by gender.

                I don't think of bisexuals as any less faithful, as such.  Same degree of faithfulness, in the face of double the number of people who attempt to subvert the existing relationship, results in a greater likelihood of the relationship being subverted.

                Precisely. However, because we're dealing with sex, and a sexual minority, as Drew has already shown, people's attitudes will already be negative about this person no matter their actual behavior, and will be focused on sex rather than the relationship. Fucking American culture...

                When are you going to understand that being normal is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage. - Practical Magic

                by Keori on Tue Jun 15, 2010 at 09:32:04 AM PDT

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                •  what i'm focused on is this: (0+ / 0-)

                  In any given relationship you have two people who have a given level of faithfulness to each other, in the sense of each regarding the other as their primary relationship.  

                  Now each member of the relationship is likely to get bombarded with a certain number of "requests for defection," from unscrupulous people who would like to break up the existing partnership in order to replace the existing partner.  

                  The more people who tell you that your exiting partner is no good and they want to be your partner instead, the more competitive stress that input places on the relationship.  

                  If you're bi, you get potentially double the number of requests compared to if you're straight or gay (actually it's more than double: 10% of the same gender who are gay or bi, and 90% of the other gender who are straight).  So that's (more than) double the amount of external competitive pressure on your relationship.  

                  I agree, relationship is primary, and sex is a subset of relationship (rather than the other way 'round).  

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