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View Diary: I can haz environ-meta? (139 comments)

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  •  I'm not interested in being recognized (1+ / 0-)
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    mem from somerville

    I'm well established internationally in my technical field and do not need or seek recognition from the crowd at Daily Kos.  I simply am trying to correct some of the misinformation I see on these pages.

    Please understand: some people don't want to be drawn into groups.  Try to honor that diversity.  Not everyone wants to be associated with a group.  And the ekos tag signifies a group.  You can deny it, but such a denial is ridiculous.  The group has its members.  It has its own html code.  It has its own "rangers."  Yet you claim it's not a group?


    And don't tell me why I signed up with this blog.  There were no tags when I signed up; years, years before you did.  This wasn't a community when I joined.  It was a sparsely populated political blog.  It morphed into a "community" after certain people joined and turned it into one; well after I was here.  

    I'm not trying to insult anyone.  But the fact is, for anyone with deep scientific education, most of the "environmental" diaries on this site have only a passing acquaintance with science.  

    Look: You can have your clique and tag your diaries and chum around with your pals on ekos.  

    I simply was trying to understand if I, as an independent diarist, would be required to bear your label and unwillingly be associated with a group with which I don't care to be associated.

    The original draft of this diary suggested that yes, not only would my work be branded with the tag but I would be "reported" if I deleted it.  

    That bothered me, so I questioned it.

    I don't find that to be unreasonable.

    Remember: not everyone seeks to belong.  Some simply want to inform, in their own way.  

    •  You seem to confuse (0+ / 0-)

      belonging with informing, the more people who see your writing, the more people who are informed!  That's it, bottom line.  Nothing more or less.

      I don't know how to convey that any more clearer than I have.

      And I think the reporting issue is a perfect reason to be peeved, that goes to far, I see why that would bother or anyone else.  I'm glad you brought that up and it makes us better for you doing that.  We're new, it's a new process.  

      But you are still talking DOWN to me.  This is not a journal, this is not linked to a University nor is it peer reviewed and it will never be.  It is a blog that yes, has turned into a community and as Kos has been very open about stating, it's become its own thing.  Get over it.

      And I will deny it, no one has to belong to the group to have a diary tagged!  It's just people who are attempting to bring writing to a greater audience, again not to belong but to inform.  Whether you think anyone else's diaries are informative or not, that's another issue on its own.

      The only people who label themselves "ekos" are those who purposefully look for environmental diaries and add those tags and who write the Earthships with environmental news and then put all those diaries that have been tagged into a list so that people can browns and see diaries they might have missed.

      Can we at least agree to disagree?  I think part of this is an issue of semantics, informing is different than belonging.

      •  Here's the issue (1+ / 0-)
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        mem from somerville

        You've suggested that a diarist should add a statement that they don't want their diary tagged with the ekos tag.

        I think that is 180 degrees from the way it should be.  I think the ekos police should ask, and honor the response, of a diarist before slapping their tag on a diary.  

        If that was the system, I think our disagreement would be moot.

        It's the intrusion, the assumption, that one would want to be associated with your group and that one has to burden themselves with asking for an exception that is so abrasive to me.  

        Not everyone wants to belong.  Not everyone seeks your tag.  Please don't force it on everyone who writes a diary you or your group decides is "environmental."

        I'm sorry.  I realize this must seem confusing to you.  But some of us have been nonconformists for a long, long time.  We don't want your tags.  We simply want to communicate and let our communication live or die on its own merits.  No tags.  No false propping up by a group of followers.  Just merits.

        •  Again (0+ / 0-)

          I said quite a bit ago that I understand why you don't want the tag but wanted to be clear about our purpose and yet you still go with the condescension.

          I'm not confused.


          Either way, we will make a note privately or you make a note that you don't want the tag.  I was just trying to honor your wishes!  

          I get your point, you can however make it without being insulting and treating me like I'm an idiot.

          People who "join" and who try to do work in a way that's different than the way you are doing is just as valid, important, etc.  

          This is what pisses me off the most, are those who give the whole, I was here before you were, I knew this place when it was like this.  I was a rebel before being a rebel was cool.

          You have your own club already, you're own clique, you do realize it?

        •  Enough with this 'police' bs, Ernest. (1+ / 0-)
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          Hopeful Skeptic

          You don't have to post anything special in your diary, and the Rangers will leave you alone. But I give you fair warning: the thousands of Kossacks that have TU status on this site may not know your wishes, and all of them can change your tags. We have no control over them. If you don't tell them up front, you should probably police your tags carefully.

          By the way, I'm astonished that you are still posting on Daily Kos if you feel this way. If you truly wanted your work to stand on it's own, you would set up a blog on Blogger or Wordpress. And unless you are truly famous, very few would read it. But not here. You know why? Because this site gives you a platform in which like-minded Kossacks can find your work more easily. This is precisely what eKos is trying to do, just taking it a step further. Any notion that this site allows your work to 'live or die on its own merits' is a delusion. My opinion of course. Do what you like and be at peace.

          eKos: Environmental diaries @ DK

          by patrickz on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 12:03:11 AM PDT

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    •  I agree with you, ETB (1+ / 0-)
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      But the fact is, for anyone with deep scientific education, most of the "environmental" diaries on this site have only a passing acquaintance with science.  

      There comes a point where it becomes embarrassing to be associated with a group. For example, even if you were trying to write good medical/science stuff at HuffPo, the quackery is so dominant that everyone in my field makes fun of it. Mercilessly. And to be known as a HuffPo writer would be worse for one's credibility.

      I see the same thing on some topics here, in the name of enviro.  

      But I think I've decided to go the other way--I want to be included because I want my voice heard, as unpopular as it may be. Because there are more reachable science-friendly folks here. Yet I understand the desire to opt-out.

      "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

      by mem from somerville on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 07:22:11 AM PDT

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      •  I wonder about this statement (0+ / 0-)

        But the fact is, for anyone with deep scientific education, most of the "environmental" diaries on this site have only a passing acquaintance with science.

        First, I'd say that it is probably true that a majority of people on DK do not have scientific training (though there is a healthy minority, no doubt).

        But I disagree with the notion that this disqualifies those Kossacks from reporting on environmental issues. A lot of the writing I see on DK either quotes the scientific literature, or cites a reputable journalistic source. Sure, there are those who misunderstand or take it too far, but many times they are challenged in the comments. But I believe that a lot of the writing is excellent.

        I would also say that scientific training does not necessarily qualify one as an expert in all things 'environmental'. (As an example, I work at a fairly prestigious university, and we had a professor invite Lord Monckton to give a physics colloquium.)

        But I think that you have a healthy attitude, mem, and I appreciate your willingness to participate.

        I'll just relate one more quick anecdote. I was recently at 'the' physics conference for my field. It attracts Nobel laureates and top scientists from all over the world. But, in the end, it is open to anyone who is willing to pay the membership and entry fees. This year, we had a man show up to give a poster by the name of Charles Sven. His brand of crazy is well beyond anything that gets published at Daily Kos. Yet he was allowed to set up his poster and chat about his ideas with any physicist who decided to drop by (quite a few, in fact). I'm not trying to draw a direct analogy to Daily Kos with this story, as APS puts up a financial barrier that is rather high (hundreds of dollars), and which normally serves to keep out the kooks. But the presence of Charles Sven did not keep any Nobel laureates from speaking at the same conference.

        eKos: Environmental diaries @ DK

        by patrickz on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 10:19:51 AM PDT

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        •  I didn't say it disqualifies them. (0+ / 0-)

          Where did I say that?

          Of course everyone is free to post any kind of crank science they want. It happens all the time. In fact, the anti-vaxxers even had a booth at one of the Netroots Nations meetings: Troll Booth. And we have the right to refer to their presence/diary/comments and respond. And then they have every right to respond to mine.

          But did the APS endorse and publicize this guy by highlighting his work? I'll bet you $10 they didn't. They have to post his abstract in the book, but that's the equivalent of a diary then. Anyone can post. It wasn't in a highlighted and seemingly endorsed collection.

          Falsehoods and misuse of science are are actually dangerous--see anti-vax for a perfect example of this. And some of the posts here are equally anti-science, yet endorsed because they don't have the background to understand them.

          For example, this may pre-date you, but we had a poster here called Scaredhuman. She was a CT crackpot. I knew right away--but she had some kind of anti-Monsanto screed that made the rec list (because you can always make the rec list with an anti-Monsanto screed). Eventually she was banned for CT and crankery. But her stuff totally would have been pulled into eKos by well-meaning members, I'm sure.

          I can see why Ernest is unwilling to be associated with that. Especially if one has professional standing--we don't need the drama here or to be linked to it. We can choose to do it as a public service, or with the hope that people googling the topic may also see some facts. Sometimes I post because I've had the same argument 10 times in the comments and want to have a single place to just point back to each time. But we don't need--and may not want--to be part of a group if it has that kind of stuff in it.

          "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

          by mem from somerville on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 10:49:23 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I never claimed that you said that, mem. The (0+ / 0-)

            quote was from Ernest, not you. And I may have misunderstood the statement. If I did, I apologize.

            And you are correct that the APS didn't highlight Sven's work. Of course they wouldn't. But here is where I think we will probably have to agree to disagree on a couple of points:

            1. One of the jobs of the rangers is to monitor for CT and crackpot diaries. These are in violation of site rules. We won't find them all, but we hope that the community will contact us when such a diary is tagged. So, no, I don't believe that a diary by Scaredhuman would necessarily get the eKos tag. But, of course, there will surely be diaries that get tagged with which you will disagree, though won't necessarily fit a strict definition of CT or crankery.
            1. And while we have a small e-mail list for organizational purposes, I don't see the eKos project itself as a group, at least no more so than Daily Kos itself. Whenever you write a diary at DK, you have the DK banner up top. Whenever you want to broadcast your diary via eKos, you attach the tag.

            We are trying to build a platform. This platform is open to all who want to participate, as long as they follow a minimal set of rules. Sound familiar? You and Ernest may disagree with this assessment, and may even be correct to some extent, but our goal is not to create a 'clique' or faction. It is to provide this platform, or service, or whatever you want to call it, to those Kossacks who are interested. Nothing more, nothing less.

            eKos: Environmental diaries @ DK

            by patrickz on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 11:28:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But if you joined DK's platform (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              you didn't necessarily sign up to be part of any other group or platform. That's Ernest's point.  And I agree with his reasoning and his request.  Nothing more, nothing less.

              "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

              by mem from somerville on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 11:38:27 AM PDT

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              •  Well, I think we are all in agreement on that (0+ / 0-)

                point. But I really, really took issue with some of Ernest's language ('busybodies' and 'police'). However, I suppose that we are to blame for not being more careful when writing those rules. They'll be fixed, and we've learned our lesson. I truly appreciate you taking the time to discuss these matters with us, it has been most enlightening.

                eKos: Environmental diaries @ DK

                by patrickz on Sat Jun 19, 2010 at 11:45:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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