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View Diary: Support for Palestinian Statehood delegitimating Israel? (189 comments)

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  •  That same poll shows a majority of (8+ / 0-)

    Palestinians supporting a two-state solution without land exchanges:

    Do you accept the creation of a Palestinian state on the area of the
    1967 borders as a final solution for the Palestinian problem?

    Yes 51.7
    No 44.7
    No opinion/I do not know 3.5

    So your statement about the prevalence of not legitimizing the other (meaning, in this context, Palestinians not legitimizing Israelis) is dubious.  In fact, I would argue that the horrificness of life for many Palestinians under the occupation of the West Bank may explain the difference in answers between the two questions, as one involved land exchanges (which, by definition, recognize the legitimacy of certain settlements) and one did not.

    •  good point. n/t (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

      by canadian gal on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 07:25:45 PM PDT

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    •  Here's (8+ / 0-)

      the poll with a more thorough breakdown of the results (warning: it's a PDF document).

      I think it's also important to keep in mind the wording, specifically "as a final solution for the Palestinian problem"? The Palestinian problem is not only the occupation, it's also the refugee crisis. The creation of a Palestinian state, no matter it's borders, does not in anyway address the rights of the refugees or the problems they continue to face in the camps.

      I think this explains why you see more opposition in the Gaza Strip, where refugees form well over 1 million or two-thirds of the population of 1.5 million.

      poll result 1

      poll result 2

      Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

      by unspeakable on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 08:34:57 PM PDT

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      •  Okay. (6+ / 0-)

        I have a really weird question for you.  I can't open the document for some reason, probably because my entire computer is falling apart and I haven't configured my new one yet, so I can't tell what language was used to conduct the poll.  The reason I'm asking is because obviously the phrase "final solution" in English has all sorts of resonances, none good, with the Holocaust and extermination.  But if the poll was conducted in Arabic, and this is a translation, I'm wondering what phrase was used, if it has the same resonances, things of that nature, because that could potentially impact answers as well.

        •  The poll doesn't explicitly say (11+ / 0-)

          what language the poll was conducted in, but I'd have a hard time believing it was in anything other than Arabic. Indeed, An-Najah University, which conducted the poll, has the results (also PDF) in Arabic as well.

          The Final Solution, i.e. the Nazi policy, is translated according to wikipedia as al-ħall al-'akhir. The words the poll uses is al-ħall an-nihaa'ii. As far as I know, the latter phrase does not have the same connotations as in English.

          And actually while we're talking about the Arabic version, the phrase that is translated as "the Palestinian problem" is al-qadiyya al-filastiniyya, which is more accurately "the Palestinian Question" or "the Palestinian Cause." This is the phrase Palestinians use when talking about the conflict (often shortening it to just qadiyya), and a variant of the former translation was the title of a work by Edward Said. This phrase in Arabic is the all-encompassing term for all of our crises, rights, problems, etc., which includes the refugee issue.

          If I were one of those interviewed for this poll, I would've had to think about that first question before answering, although I say that I naturally lean towards a yes answer. But that second question is a definite and immediate no. I don't have to ponder anything. That second scenario not only does not address the refugees and other issues, but also legitimizes the settlements, which is unacceptable.

          I hope that that clears up some of the ideas lost in translation.

          Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

          by unspeakable on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 09:46:42 PM PDT

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          •  I wish I could rec your answer (5+ / 0-)

            multiple times, but since I can only rec it once I will have to figure out how to elevate your already exalted status within my posse without giving you a swelled head.  That phrase "the Palestinian problem" also jumped out at me, but then I forgot to ask you about that, as I got focused on the "final solution" bit.  Thank you many times over for articulating so well the absolute need for linguistic perspective, as well as for the viewpoints that do get lost in translation.

          •  I would just add.. (8+ / 0-)

            ....that the language is similar to other "questions" posed by national groups, not only the Jews.  So there is "the Eastern Question" related to the political, social and economic effects of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, there's "the Armenian Question" and there's "the Jewish Question."  At various points there have been other national questions, including "the German question."  The first appearance or earliest known use of the phrase "final solution" in relation to European Jews is, ironically, by Theodor Herzl, according to wiki:

            The earliest known use, presumably by the author, of the term "Final Solution of the Jewish Question", was in an 1899 memo to the Russian Tzar Nicholas II, regarding how Zionism is the "final solution of the Jewish question." The memo was written by Theodor Herzl, author of the 1896 book The Jewish State.

            So clearly this has extreme connotations because we associate it with "the Final Solution," or physical extermination and state sponsored murder of 6 million Jews.  Similarly, the "Armenian Question" takes on a pretty negative light when considered in light of the Armenian genocide.  But this terminology did not originate with eliminationist discourse; Karl Marx wrote an essay "On the Jewish Question" in 1844, well before the emergence of modern racial antisemitism.  

            I think it is important to keep in mind how the phrase "the Palestinian Question" developed.  It was with this history and this use of terminology.  

            I'm sure Joseph Massad is more

            helpful and enlightening on this point in his book on "the Palestinian Question," but I think it is important to point out that this is nothing specific to the Jewish experience, notwithstanding your excellent analysis of the Arabic terms.

            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

            by Alec82 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 10:13:12 PM PDT

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            •  al-qadia does not translate well (8+ / 0-)

              as the problem

              it is related to the notion of a legal claim to justice. Qada' being justice  

              aL-Qdiya al-falasteeniya is best translated as the Palestinian case.

              We used to say, there is no Palestinian problem, only Palestinian rights a Palestinian revolution and al-qadia al-falasteeniya.

              In Lebanon, the anti-Palestinian facists in the civil war used the term, the Palestinian question, which we rejected.

              Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

              by simone daud on Wed Jun 23, 2010 at 10:55:06 PM PDT

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