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View Diary: [Neocons] Seymour Hersh: "We've Been Taken Over by a Cult" (435 comments)

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  •  I disagree; I think the supporters (none)
    got duped.  They think they voted for motherhood and apple pie ala Reagan and his cowboy hat.  They don't yet realize they've got Ayatollah Bush 'n Cheney.

    Separation of Church and State AND Corporation

    by Einsteinia on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 03:12:21 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Duped...nah (4.00)
      Living in a so called "red state", I saw that people around here knew fully well what they wanted. They share Bush's desire for blind revenge, don't give a shit about allies, aren't opposed to Christian "faith based" activities, etc.....in short, what he was selling, they were buying.

      No matter how misguided these people may be, they know fully well that they've chosen someone who wanted to take the country in a very different direction than before, even more so than Reagan. While a few might have "buyer's remorse", I can't believe that represents the truest picture.

      Bush and co have a vision of America and it's role in the world that many people share and hope to see realized. These folks don't FEEL the consequences of the actions taken and that's basically what he promised....that he'd make them "safe"....and safe=s "anywhere but here".

      One could say they'd feel duped if all this ends up in America having serious bloodshed on it's streets....anything less wouldn't make his followers feel misled.

      JMHO tho...

      •  Agree with you. (4.00)
        This is what Bush voters largely wanted. Some see killing all Muslims as some kind of holy war. Many are purely selfish, and want to see the U.S. strike out in vengeance against whoever gets in the way.  These people are okay with taking over the entire world, if that's what it takes to make them "safe" and keep their country "strong".  That's the most horrifying analogy to 30s Germany.  Germans loved Hitler to distraction and beyond, backing all his aggressions and cheering themselves hoarse until they lost the war.  Then, of course, with Allied troops all over their country, they repudiated him. Never forget, the Third Reich was beaten only by outside forces.
      •  yes its what they *think* they want (4.00)
        I know a couple of neocons well. Old friends.

        They also think they want to rule the world and bring the shining light of democracy to all nations via force, and privatize everything.

        It is easy for them to think this way, while they sit in their beautiful house and drink good whiskey, because its still abstract to them.

        But they dont connect the dots. They dont want to send their daughter to fight in a war.  They dont really want to live with their riches behind a barbed wire fence in a 3rd world country.

        You said it when you said "they dont feel the consequences" - Yet.

        I think the "red-staters" and some moderates bought the packaging, not the real product. Revenge sounds good in a video game reality, but isnt so pretty when your kids go die in a war, and you lose your job.

        The connection I have been seeing between us and 30's Germany, is the "revenge" motive... and a leadership which exploits this.

      •  You're absolutely right (4.00)
        I, too, live in a red state, and for the most part, Bushco's supporters knew exactly what they were getting.  They share his "values": complete disdain for the global community, hatred for gays and Muslims, a desire to impose a theocracy, etc.  Oh, yeah, they knew exactly what they were getting.

        "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king." - my dad

        by blueinnc on Wed Jan 26, 2005 at 05:36:49 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Escapist fantasies (4.00)
          This morning my wife and I were telling our daughter about Rambo movies (she was born too late) and the way these fantasies that rewrote recent American military history set the stage for the drama that the Bushies are playing out.

          I agree with the idea that many people want this "America goes it alone. . . for Democracy!" narrative, and I also agree with the point that they can because there has been little cost to many for pursuing it. That's what is amazing to me, that the real costs have yet to break through their bubble -- and just how self-centered people must be to able to absorb the daily casualty figures and the mounting debt and still say: things are fine for me.

          What Hersh said about the coming economic crisis made me shudder. If Americans have not figured out what got them into this, their reaction to a severe shock could be defined by the same nationalist fantasy mindset that brought us the war and re-election. In which case, we're all so screwed.

          •  Exactly my fear (4.00)
            The economic collapse of the 1930's lead to two very divergent reactions in the U.S. and in Germany.  Here, of course, FDR, backed by an economically populist Democratic party that puts our modern day counterparts to shame, put together the most progressive economic policies our country has seen. And, we all know what went down in Germany.  It scares the shit out of me that modern day U.S., where corporatism is embraced by both parties, bears a much greater resemblance to the prelude days of German fascism, where corporations, religion, and nationalism ruled, than to the realignment days of FDR.  

            The other thing that freaks me out is the thought that an economic collapse is exactly what Rove and Co. have been explicitly trying to accomplish.  Those guys are anything but stupid.  They KNOW that creating huge trade and budget deficits could lead to an economic collapse, and all indications point to a persistant, deliberate attempt to achieve such a result.  When people's lives starting hitting the shitter, what is Fox News going to say?  It's the fault of Bush's economic policies?  There will be a scapegoat-it could be China, terrorists, whoever-but as demonstrated in Dubya I, the ability of the NeoCons to capitalize on people's fears for their own power grabs is awesome.  Maybe I just need to get some sleep, but when Rove says stuff about a "permanent Republican majority," I can't help but get seriously freaked.

            The American left needs to get organized in a serious fucking way-revive the labor movement, build independent media, etc.-or the world could be in for some major, major pain in the future.  

            •  If you read the rapture websites ... (none)
              you'll realize that provoking an economic crisis is exactly what the fundies running our government want - the fall of Babylon.
              •  Yes..."CRISIS" is the key word (none)
                In order for them to retain power, the crises must continue.  We have seen the power of the crisis they created.  

                Serious thought must go into how this is to be fought.

                Organization, outside the traditional political system, is an absolute necessity.

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