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View Diary: Unions fight for justice for everybody (329 comments)

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  •  Privatizing janitorial work rarely works. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dsb, Mike08, Trotskyrepublican

    Public employment provides a lot of benefits to the public.

    1. Better citizens who are not at the poverty level.
    1. Less turnover.
    1. More buy-in to be part of the institution. Our custodians are incredible educators. They work with troubled kids, the kids with IEP's, and provide support for teachers. Having them part of the staff makes them part of the educational process.
    1. Teachers are an important part of a society to because we are adding value to the future of that society.
    1. Unions help teachers work toward the truth and speak truth to power.
    •  Re (0+ / 0-)

      Better citizens who are not at the poverty level.

      As anti-poverty as I am, this is essentially just an argument to create jobs as a form of welfare (paid for, I might add, by other low-paid private sector workers who pay taxes).

      Less turnover.

      Is turnover a problem in private-sector cleaning firms?

      More buy-in to be part of the institution. Our custodians are incredible educators. They work with troubled kids, the kids with IEP's, and provide support for teachers. Having them part of the staff makes them part of the educational process.

      Let's ask the teachers' union what janitors with no college degree can bring to the educational process as opposed to teachers with masters' degrees and 6-7 years of college work in education. I simply do not buy this argument at all.

      Teachers are an important part of a society to because we are adding value to the future of that society.

      Unions help teachers work toward the truth and speak truth to power.

      Irrelevant to the issue at hand.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sat Jul 10, 2010 at 08:59:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Snotty responses I could not handle earlier. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dirtandiron

        First, custodians are not the same as teachers, but they are better if part of the staff. Most importantly, privatizing doesn't work. Several diaries here and studies elsewhere demonstrate. By the time they get hired by an outside group, the costs add up to other people.

        Turnover rate is much higher for "cleaning firms." Of course, on site janitors do much more than clean. Also, background checks and getting the right people to work around kids is fairly important.

        Unions help teachers teach better. That is the issue at hand. At least one response to my comments documented that with a personal story.  I could add several of people who are incredible teachers that were approached for dismissal. That was changed, and they taught successfully for many years.

        Kids learn best from teachers who have experience and care about them. Unions provide the protection for teachers to do that.

        For your next argument, please have better reasoning then "i don't buy that" or "let's ask the teachers union" because, I am the teachers union. Real arguments please.

    •  Is "Less turnover" (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Liberaltarianish
      a euphemism for "impossible to fire"?
    •  I'm wondering how custodians help with IEPs (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sparhawk

      since they are confidential documents.  I don't think I ever put education by a custodian into a student's IEP.

      I am not offering a criticism, just trying to understand.

      Perhaps because our custodians are privatized, they don't have the same relationship as a district employed maintenance worker would?

      •  Custodians help students. They are people. They (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        miss SPED

        don't write them, but a reward may be helping the janitor sweep the floor. One downs syndrome boy walks with the custodian daily as the custodian sweeps for his pe because he will walk faster.

        Private firms do the job. Custodains are part of the staff that works together. It takes an entire village/school to raise a student. This type of approach also shows kids that everyone has value.

        •  Sorry (0+ / 0-)

          Again, I simply do not buy this.

          Custodial staff perform a commodity task. Their purpose is to clean classrooms, not to participate in education, any more than the cleaning staff at an electrical engineering firm knows how to design circuit boards, or at a hospital know how to heal patients. They just don't. They don't have the expertise, the subject matter knowledge, or the training.

          The fact that on occasion you might find one contributing in such a manner as you have described does not mean that their contributions in this manner are worth the extra money that could go to hiring more actual teachers.

          I come from a family of educators, do volunteer educational work in my spare time, and I know what I'm talking about in this regard. Privatizing commodity services in school districts will have about zero impact on education.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 11, 2010 at 02:07:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Again, no response to the argument. Privatizing (0+ / 0-)

            doesn't save money. Forgot that one?

            •  Sure it does (0+ / 0-)

              Cleaning staff being paid $11/hour are more expensive than unionized town cleaning staff making, what, $20-$25/hour?

              (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
              Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

              by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 11, 2010 at 07:48:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  By the time the contractor is paid, no savings (0+ / 0-)

                results. Look it up.

                •  Fine (0+ / 0-)

                  I will agree that if no savings can be realized, we should not privatize. (Which would be odd, because if your contention was true then most employers would hire their own cleaning staff instead of using outside contractors... why do many/most employers do precisely that?). However, in principle, I completely agree.

                  Now, will you concede that if I were able to point to numerous examples of privatization of cleaning services saving a lot of money, and a good economic case could be made for privatizing these services in a particular town, the town should do it or consider doing it?

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Sun Jul 11, 2010 at 08:37:26 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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