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View Diary: Equality - why is it still Girls not allowed? (267 comments)

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  •  not all would agree with you (2+ / 0-)
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    ER Doc, rgjdmls

    some Jews would disagree rather pointedly, since they view the idea of the trinity being ridiculous.  Muslims honor Jesus as a prophet, but the idea that he is God is blasphemous.

    And some self-identified Christians accuse Muslims of worshipping Muhammad, which is of course ridiculous.  But if you doubt the misunderstanding of Islam, google General William Boykin for an example of a really stupid statement.

    "what the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for all the children of the community" - John Dewey

    by teacherken on Sat Aug 07, 2010 at 05:27:11 AM PDT

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    •  Hrm, do all Christians believe in (2+ / 0-)
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      ER Doc, FiredUpInCA

      'the trinity'?  I thought that was a Catholic thing.

      But all 3 worship 'God', whether or not they also worship 'Jesus' and the 'Holy Ghost'.  And the latter 2 do not make an appearance in the Scout oath I took as a kid.  I don't know if they've been added since.

      Am I cynical? Yes I am! - Bob the Builder's lesser known brother Pete the Politician

      by Ezekial 23 20 on Sat Aug 07, 2010 at 05:34:29 AM PDT

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      •  in theory Trinity is basic belief (5+ / 0-)

        for Christians -  part of earliest creeds.  Unitarians do not, and their set of beliefs would be rejected by many trinitarian Christians as Arianism, a heresy rejected by the Council of Nicea in 325.

        Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox (Russian, Greek, Bulgarian, etc,), and Oriental (Copts, Ethiopians, etc) all believe in the trinity, that Jesus was fully God.

        "what the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for all the children of the community" - John Dewey

        by teacherken on Sat Aug 07, 2010 at 05:42:35 AM PDT

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        •  Live and learn. (1+ / 0-)
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          esquimaux

          Although I think there's an extremely strong case to be made right from the Bible that Jesus was not 'fully God'.

          If he was, he certainly wouldn't have asked himself why he was 'forsaken' on the cross.  He would have already known.

          Am I cynical? Yes I am! - Bob the Builder's lesser known brother Pete the Politician

          by Ezekial 23 20 on Sat Aug 07, 2010 at 05:44:26 AM PDT

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        •  Trinity concept invented by Valentinus (1+ / 0-)
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          rgjdmls

          "Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God... These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato."

          Since Valentinus had used the term hypostases, his name came up in the Arian disputes in the fourth century. Marcellus of Ancyra, who was a staunch opponent of Arianism but also denounced the belief in God existing in three hypostases as heretical (and was later condemned for his views)[dubious – discuss][citation needed], attacked his opponents (On the Holy Church, 9) by linking them to Valentinus:

          "Valentinus, the leader of a sect, was the first to devise the notion of three subsistent entities (hypostases), in a work that he entitled On the Three Natures. For, he devised the notion of three subsistent entities and three persons — father, son, and holy spirit."

          It should be noted that the Nag Hammadi library Sethian text Trimorphic Protennoia identifies Gnosticism as professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          The Holy Trinity, as a formal doctrine, was adopted by the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE.

          http://wiki.answers.com/...

          As it is with many doctrines that we associate with Christianity, the Holy Trinity doctrine is a product endorsed by the Council of Nicaea, rather than a concept that originated with Jesus Christ.

          •  already in acceptance by then (1+ / 0-)
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            Shirl In Idaho

            And in a sense it does not matter what one reads in the Bible in that regard, since it was the Council of Nicea which determined what were the canonical books of the Bible.  

            "what the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for all the children of the community" - John Dewey

            by teacherken on Sat Aug 07, 2010 at 06:35:36 AM PDT

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        •  Plus the "Great Schism" (2+ / 0-)
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          esquimaux, happymisanthropy

          Don't forget the Great Schism between Roman Catholicism and the Orthodox churches.  There's that little dispute over the use of the word "filioque."  Actually, the debate really revolves around the suffix "que," as follows:

          "...While the Western Church stated that the Holy Spirit came from the Father and the Son, the Eastern Church believed the Holy Spirit to be only of the Father..."

          Oddly, when the Nicean creed was crafted, this doctrine didn't even exist.  What I (raised in the Roman Catholic tradition) cannot understand is the inherently illogical dogma of the Orthodox faith on this point, if they want to believe in a Trinity at all, when that faith excels in trying to craft exquisitely logical structures for its faith.  How can one have a triune god-head of equal stature when two parts of it stem totally from just one entity?  Just collapse the wave form into the one and be done with it.  At least the Roman Catholic dogma emphasizing the balance between the three elements creates a need for the Trinity, just as quarks build up basic particles in our universe.

          "Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE

          by PrahaPartizan on Sat Aug 07, 2010 at 07:45:58 AM PDT

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          •  it makes a great deal of sense (2+ / 0-)

            if one thinks as a Greek rather than a Latin.

            And I think you are over simplifying the history of the split between E and W.  The Great Schism occurred when a Cardinal place a bull of excommunication on the altar of the Ecumenical Patriarch and walked out.  The Patriarch eventually responded with an excommunication of the Pope.  These were excommunications of individuals.  For a while thereafter,there was still a Roman Catholic monastery on Mount Athos.

            The split begins much earlier, with the issue of the filioque coming up in the matter of Photius, and earlier with Charlemagne, who demanded that one Pope excommunicate the Patriarch of his day for dropping the filioque and that Pope gently pointing out that it was in the West that it was added, not part of the original creed -  I believe, and I am doing all this from memory, it first appeared in the documents of the Council of Toledo near the end of the 6th century.  

            You raise a question of logic.  That is very much the Latin approach, which is also I might note more oriented towards legal definitions.  The Greek approach was apophatic -  that is, being hesitant to try to define the nature of God unless it was required to rule out a heresy.  Ultimately the idea of unity has to have one principal, with multiple manifestations.  Thus the idea of God the Father as the originating principle, even though both the Son and the Holy Spirit have always existed even though they were not recognized by mankind in their full nature.

            Thus the Orthodox will point at the text in John that Jesus will have the Father send the Holy Spirit, at the same time as acknowledging the previous presence of the HS -  the Creed acknowledges that the Prophets of the Jewish Bible were speaking through the HS.

            And if you want to start getting into subatomic particles, I would suggest that Western religion and theology pale in comparison to Buddhism - you might want to look at The Dancing Wu-Li Masters

            Peace.

            "what the best and wisest parent wants for his child is what we should want for all the children of the community" - John Dewey

            by teacherken on Sat Aug 07, 2010 at 07:56:45 AM PDT

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