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View Diary: Destroying rights in order to save them (247 comments)

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  •  Go read Angry Mouse's FP story from today. (13+ / 0-)

    Pay close attention to the comments.  Then come back and tell indie that the evidence is underwhelming.

    Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

    by FogCityJohn on Sun Aug 08, 2010 at 10:46:51 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Honestly, my hope is that (6+ / 0-)

      the comments in her post will be a learning experience for the admins of this blog.

      'Normal' has always been collaborating with injustice. - Tim Wise

      by indiemcemopants on Sun Aug 08, 2010 at 10:51:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Today there's been (8+ / 0-)

      a crop of diaries popping up about gay issues alleging that "some of the community" are trying to shut down debate here. Someone alleged that in my diary last night, but I think a lot of that sentiment is because of my diary plus AM's front page - they were both being read and commented on all day.

      They think that when we start to get bold and call out the BS for what it is that it's the same as trying to shut down debate - as if, like I said to the commenter in my last diary, one gay crippled guy who writes blog posts on one website on the internet has the kind of power to ever shut down debate of anything, anywhere.

      But the other thing that really disturbs the fuck out of me about the whole "let's have a reasonable calm debate over this!!!" is how it would look if it were any other issue. If someone said, hey let's have a calm, reasonable debate about women going back to coat hanger days. Why are you trying to shut the debate down, man, there's no harm! Let's debate on if Brown v. Board was correctly decided! There's no harm! Let's debate whether the holocaust happened! There's no harm!

      It's ridiculous. They paint US as irrational because we don't want to have that kind of debate because that time has passed. And they get away with it.

      'Normal' has always been collaborating with injustice. - Tim Wise

      by indiemcemopants on Sun Aug 08, 2010 at 11:01:56 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  LGBT issues are just treated differently. (10+ / 0-)

        I have a lot of respect for Meteor Blades in general, but this is one where the site administration has completely fallen down.  No one would be allowed to make the kind of comments we see in LGBT diaries about any other minority.  No one would be allowed to accuse African-Americans of "whining" and demanding a "pony" if the issue were AA rights.  No one would be permitted to tell Jews just to "accept political reality" and wait for equal rights.  

        But LGBTs are treated differently, and I think the reason is that people don't truly view the LGBT struggle for equality as the equal (pardon the pun) of other similar struggles.  Lots of so-called progressives don't want to face up to the fact that when pressed, they don't really accept the importance of our struggle.  So members are allowed to spew all kinds of shit at gay folks, and it's considered A-OK.  It isn't right, but that's the way it is.  

        Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

        by FogCityJohn on Sun Aug 08, 2010 at 11:26:00 PM PDT

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        •  If you can show me where... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joedemocrat, soothsayer99

          ...I have not viewed that LGBT struggle as equal to any other civil rights/human rights struggle, I would like to see it. Quite the contrary, I believe.

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Mon Aug 09, 2010 at 01:11:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I am referrring . . . (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            musing85, tnichlsn, Predictor, Alec82

            to the site administration's attitude toward the language that is used against LGBT members.  I am talking about how the site's rules on civility are enforced when the discussion concerns LGBT issues.  

            I hope I do not need to catalogue the instances in which members have called LGBTs "childish," or "hysterical," or "whining" for demanding equality.  Nor should I have to enumerate the instances in which our straight "allies" have told us to "grow up" if we criticize either the administration or the Democratic leadership in Congress.  This kind of infantalizing language is demeaning.  And calling gay people "hysterical" reflects a negative stereotype of gay men as overly emotional and effeminate.  In addition, I have personally reported to you at least one instance in which a member has repeatedly referred to gay sex as "buggery."  (I received no response, and I don't know whether any action was taken.)

            And before you respond that such comments aren't really that bad, I would just note that I know you're giving out warnings to (gay) people for saying another member is "nuts."  If that gets a warning, I think things like "hysterical" should be off limits too.

            Just my $0.02.    

            Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

            by FogCityJohn on Mon Aug 09, 2010 at 04:48:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Or rather, "not enforced" (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tnichlsn, Predictor, Alec82, FogCityJohn

              I am talking about how the site's rules on civility are enforced when the discussion concerns LGBT issues.

              "Grow up"
              "Hysterical"
              "Drama queen"
              "Pony"
              "Whining"

              I've seen all of them more times than I can count. And I'd wager that none of the usual suspects who can be found trolling around LGBT diaries, uprating such comments, have never received a single warning.

            •  Given my public record... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              tnichlsn, soothsayer99

              ...why would you even think suggest: "And before you respond that such comments aren't really that bad..."?

              I give out warnings to people for sexist, heterosexist, racist, anti-semitic, anti-Arab and anti-ablist comments all the time. A number of people in each of those categories have been banned.

              Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Mon Aug 09, 2010 at 06:23:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Because . . . (0+ / 0-)

                I have seen comments of this nature on the site more times than I can count, and they persist.  As Michael correctly points out, the same people show up time after time and use the same language over and over again.  It's tiring, it's demeaning, and yes, it's homophobic.

                I'm a 49-year-old gay guy with HIV, so trust me, I've been called my share of names in my time.  But even though I'm used to it, it remains unpleasant, and I simply did not expect to have to deal with this kind of thing so frequently on a "progressive" site.  

                Perhaps it might serve everyone well if there were a story or diary devoted to this issue.  

                Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

                by FogCityJohn on Mon Aug 09, 2010 at 09:33:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Let's look at just one example: "Drama queen" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Alec82, FogCityJohn

              I did a little digging in the archives, and here's some of what I found.

              In the past year, there have been 851 comments containing the words "drama queen" that received not a single troll-rating. In that same period of time, there were a grand total of 27 comments using that phrase that received at least one troll-rating (and 13 of those were from the same troll, bpender).

              The maximum number of recommends on a "drama queen" comment was 59, this past January, when Christin said It's what this place was before the drama queens invaded and the desperate need for mojo and recs that turned people into ....drama queens with a posse. Then there was another from February which got 30 recommends, when Lying eyes said Maybe if we get some form of HCR the drama queens can afford to see a professional and stop using DKos for therapy. Many of the usual suspects recommended that one. Perhaps the best example of people completely not getting the point came in the cluster-fuck that started with a comment from indie noting that using "drama queen" in the context of a gay Obama boycott was homophobic. A whole slew of several dozen comments followed wondering how anybody could possibly think that "drama queen" was in any way related to gay people. Second place in the clueless brigade goes to a Dr Marcos, who opined last October that "I have never seen any homophobic comments on DailyKos but obviously some drama queens like to cook up controversy when they can especially on a slow news day, which is kinda pathetic."

              Particularly offensive was this outburst from fou, who claims to be lesbian, and who, while in a typically heated exchange with anyone who does not agree with her that gay rights should not be at the top of anyone's list of things to get done anytime soon, said to you "...because unlike you and the rest of the pussy drama queens, I don't wet my panties whenever I feel someone in the world doesn't care about me." She got five recommends on that comment; I was the only person to drop a bagel on it, precisely, as I noted in my comment giving the reason, for "pussy drama queens." There were 653 comments on that diary, and it was on DADT, so it's not like it simply dropped off the list too quickly for anyone to have noticed.

              •  Hear, hear (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                musing85, Alec82

                Thanks for all of the research, Michael.

                And yes, fou is one of the worst offenders.  Although she says she's a lesbian, she has posted all kind of anti-gay comments.  She seems to have very stereotypical views of gay men.  

                Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

                by FogCityJohn on Mon Aug 09, 2010 at 09:36:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  He is not talking.. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            musing85, tnichlsn, Predictor, FogCityJohn

            ...about your view, he is talking about the difference in treatment between, say, antisemitic comments, and homophobic ones.  It is broader than the site admin, and I think it just reflects a cultural tolerance for anti-gay discourse.

            "All along the watchtower, princes kept the view..."

            by Alec82 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 at 05:46:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's not that you're not supportive of the (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tnichlsn, Predictor, FogCityJohn

            struggle--we know you are, and we're grateful. However, for the most part (at least as far as anyone not able to see the administrative bits of the site is concerned), it does appear that we're more or less left hanging out to dry. If I had a nickel for every time someone came into an LGBT-related diary and started talking smack, I wouldn't need to buy lottery tickets. It took us the better part of two years to get to the point where people finally stopped making "Mann Coulter" jokes--until yesterday when another one popped up. But we're still routinely called "drama queens," "childish," "whiners," "hysterical," told to "grow up," "be realistic," and to stop asking for "ponies." We do our part to smack down that kind of nonsense, but we're frequently outnumbered by the crowd of usual suspects who uprate it. And I don't remember seeing much in the way of administrative support, despite the fact that I know many of the most egregious offenders have been reported.

            •  To offer just one example... (3+ / 0-)

              ...I have publicly (years before becoming director of community) and repeatedly attacked the Coulter-is-a-man comments (with all its implications). And I've given warnings for it as well.

              Comments that I consider to be heterosexist - like "drama queens" or "hysterical" - do get warnings (and more if repeated). I obviously don't see all of these, but when I do, I don't ignore them.

              However, comments like "be realistic," "grow up," and "whiners" are, in my view, not orientation specific. We ALL get those kind of remarks directed at us, on a variety of subjects.

              Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Mon Aug 09, 2010 at 06:30:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Would it be too much to ask, then, (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                tnichlsn, Alec82, FogCityJohn

                for a little more strict scrutiny, to borrow a reasonably apposite phrase from the legal world? The most egregious of the offenders seem hell-bent on getting us to come around to their way of thinking, can be reliably counted on to show up in most gay- or lesbian-related diaries, and they don't pay much attention to us when we point out the site rules. It would be nice to get a little back-up now and then.

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