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  •  Let me clarify because I am not anti-Mormon (4+ / 0-)

    I am a teacher in an area with lots of Mormons. I personally know a bunch of Mormon families. As a teacher especially I would take a class full of Mormon kids any day of the week. You don't get to travel across a new continent, with Darwin's cupid unleashing arrows of death along the way, and not develop into a group of handsome, smart, resourceful, and industrious people. Mormons are just like everyone else. But the INSTITUTION is very fucked up, and yes I think the $cientology analogy is apt. I am well read on both LDS and $ci, and not only do they actively collaborate on issues of public relations, the LDS has some pretty aggressive tactics under their belts as well. They may not have an RPF where you run around a pole all day and eat beans and rice, or send thugs out to collect on your Trillion year contract with the Sea Org, but the similarities are more alike than not. Again, not the PEOPLE, the INSTITUTION.

    Borrowed time is borrowed trouble.

    by TheIsleOfMan on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 11:51:18 AM PDT

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    •  Oh, I agree. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Matt Z, TheIsleOfMan

      But the INSTITUTION is very fucked up, and yes I think the $cientology analogy is apt.

      I'm an ex-Mormon, and while a lot of LDS people I know think I left because "oh, you were probably offended by someone, weren't you?", I left because the church has been stagnated for far too long, and it shows in the doctrine, the policies, the public relations nightmares (civil rights, Prop 8), the scandals (like the September Six, the Salamander Papers).  That's what happens when you get to be leader by managing to outlive everyone else.  You can't progress that way.

      What I would have liked to see is the church actually lead the way on SUPPORTING same-sex marriage (just picking their recent controversy) since, you know, they had that whole polygamy thing back in the day.  After what the Mormons went through in the 1800s (they have one of the few claims to actual religious persecution in America, although not anymore, IMO), you'd THINK that the leadership would KNOW BETTER than to act how they've been acting.  This is CLEARLY not the case, and it just makes me sad, because I firmly believe that 99.99999999999% of Mormons are really good people, and they deserve better from their church.

      But unless they DRASTICALLY change how the church is led, progress is unlikely.  I occasionally wonder what Joseph Smith would think of the church these days.

      America's military went to war. America went to the mall.

      by talismanlangley on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:00:17 PM PDT

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      •  Interesting (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z, talismanlangley

        After what the Mormons went through in the 1800s (they have one of the few claims to actual religious persecution in America, although not anymore, IMO), you'd THINK that the leadership would KNOW BETTER than to act how they've been acting.

        I was in grad school with a woman who was shunned because of her faith (and this was Harvard no less. I was very disappointed.) We became friends and she loaned me her great, great grandmother's diary which started in Pennsylvania and ended in Utah over the course of I think 3 years. Of course, along the way there were children, parents, fellow travelers lost. "Indian" attacks, famine, winters, illness, everything you can imagine. She was 9 when she started the diary. And this is what I meant by Darwin's cupid arrows of death. This is a population that has been naturally selected. The results show in their looks, smarts, etc.

        The religious persecution aspect is one I had never considered, so thank you for bringing that up. I will consider that more as I think it may have an influence on just why the Institution behaves as it does. Is this Abused acting like the Abuser?

        Regardless, and as much as I think of Mormon people as pretty classy and decent folks, I have some issues with Joseph Smith and the whole premise. But, none of that here. I don't want to be offense and I think I could be on this issue if I am not careful.

        Borrowed time is borrowed trouble.

        by TheIsleOfMan on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:14:38 PM PDT

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        •  Oooh, now that would be interesting. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Matt Z, TheIsleOfMan

          her great, great grandmother's diary which started in Pennsylvania and ended in Utah over the course of I think 3 years

          I would LOVE to read something like that; church history has always been fascinating to me.  I even like "The Work & the Glory" series (by Gerald Lund), even though it's from a VERY pro-LDS perspective and falls more under historical fiction than straight history book.

          Darwin's cupid arrows of death

          I quite like that phrase.

          I have many, many issues with the founding, and a lot of the "spiritual" aspects, but one thing I DO give Joseph Smith credit for was sticking with it til the end.  I honestly can't say that I would have had that much conviction to go to Carthage Jail, you know?

          This has been a most ... unexpected conversation.  It'd be interesting to carry it on off-thread, if you're amenable.  :)

          America's military went to war. America went to the mall.

          by talismanlangley on Thu Aug 12, 2010 at 12:46:31 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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