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View Diary: Atheist Digest '10, The believers' path to Atheism (212 comments)

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  •  I'm not seeking to built nor inhabit (7+ / 0-)

    an echo chamber.  I think you're basing your assumptions on some pretty thin evidence.  I would love nothing more than to engage with people that disagree with me.  I find it doubtful, however, that someone who finds the mere characterization of "gods in the sky" as so offensive as to stop all interest in the diary would be able to engage with me and not invent some feeling of contempt that wasn't really there.  

    I assume your characterization of defensiveness was aimed at me.  I was simply trying to get to the bottom of your comment, and what caused your, in my estimation, overreaction to the diary.  

    I would seem you aren't that interested in discussing the contents of said diary if you can be so easily deterred from reading it.  

    "Religion allows people by the millions to believe things, that only a crazy person could believe on their own." -Sam Harris

    by XNeeOhCon on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:33:37 PM PDT

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    •  I find this disingenuous (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bigjacbigjacbigjac

      The first step in engaging people that come from other perspectives is to accept what they tell you about how they perceive your treatment and portrayals of them.  if you are unwilling to do that little, there is no room for engagement.

      Obama is losing John Edwards' base.

      by snout on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:43:12 PM PDT

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      •  You leave no room for engagement if (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rieux, wilderness voice, teknospaz

        you expect me to tip toe around your beliefs before you've really even given them to me.  I can't come to the table and say "If you don't accept my demands there will be no negotiation."  That contrdicts the very definition of negotiating.  "Engagement" works the same way.  You are free to say: "I find the use of that phrase offensive."  I ask "why."  I don't have to say "I'll never say it anymore."  We have yet to even scratch the surface and I'm sure that there is far more "offensive" stuff down there if you can't handle what has already been said.  

        There is no room for engagement when one or both parties are easily offended.  I guarantee you can't offend me on this subject.  I've heard it all before and I have the capability of disagreeing whith what I see are mischaracterizations of my opinions without insisting that those responsible for those mischaracterizations bow and scrape to my sesibilities.

        "Religion allows people by the millions to believe things, that only a crazy person could believe on their own." -Sam Harris

        by XNeeOhCon on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:53:51 PM PDT

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        •  Q: Why did people start shaking hands? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bigjacbigjacbigjac

          A;  To assure each other that that both parties were unarmed.

          When you want to start a dialogue, a level of good faith is required to begin.  You don't have to promise to never say something again just because I find it offensive, but if you cannot accept at face value that I do - we indeed have no room to talk.  

          Being offended is a choice.  I do not generally make that choice.  But I also do not ignore clear signs of contempt.

          Obama is losing John Edwards' base.

          by snout on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 10:59:31 PM PDT

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          •  Fair enough. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bigjacbigjacbigjac

            I accept that you are offended by some of the diarist's words.  I don't feel I've shown you contempt, and I can assure you that I have no contempt for you.  I wouldn't have invested this much time in this dialogue had I felt otherwise.  You presented me with a statement indicating that you took offense to something which I feel is relatively benign.  I sought futher explanation from you as to why you felt it was so contemptable as to warrant dismissal of the rest of the diarist discussion.  You told me I was being defensive and suggested that if I wished to engage with you I should accept that you feel it was offensive.  I never denied that you felt that way, but simply sought to understand why.  Was that my mistake?  Show me where I showed you contempt and I'll retract.

            "Religion allows people by the millions to believe things, that only a crazy person could believe on their own." -Sam Harris

            by XNeeOhCon on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 11:07:30 PM PDT

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          •  Does it necessarily follow (0+ / 0-)

            that contempt for an idea in which you believe is the same as contempt for you?

            I think not. My ideas and beliefs can stand up to debate or not. Anyone is free to poke holes in them. If they call me an idiot for believing in them, then it's personal and rude. But they are free to say they find the ideas idiotic. Why should that offend me?

            The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. --Bertrand Russell

            by denise b on Mon Aug 23, 2010 at 10:32:44 PM PDT

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      •  The first step in engaging people (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rieux, Larry Bailey, fumie, denise b, XNeeOhCon

        is engaging their ideas, and being prepared to encounter ones that challenge your thinking.

        You seem to favor negotiation with preconditions, rather than approaching dialog with an open mind.

        Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

        by RandomActsOfReason on Sun Aug 22, 2010 at 11:16:39 PM PDT

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