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View Diary: "How will we explain our ignorance and our compliance to our grandchildren?" (229 comments)

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  •  The Sad Bit Is (5+ / 0-)

    That's the same question the haters are asking.

    "We have to stop the Muslims now, or what will we tell our Grandchildren after they take over?"

    The problem with co-opting a religious message--for good or for ill--is that when it's rooted entirely in fourth or fifth hand anecdotal metaphors and thousands of years worth of "telephone game" style oral tradition, there's enough murk in there that you can suit it to multiple messages.

    Which is not UNLIKE the struggle within Islam between the people who are trying to "correctly" interpret the Divine Truth.

    Kudos to this guy for calling intolerance when he sees it, but intolerance and the natural evolution from there into hatred and eventually violence are not merely a few turds in the punch-bowl of "love thy neighbor" but a NECESSARY and UNAVOIDABLE consequence of religion.  For more evidence see: All of history forever.

    Sam Harris' "Letter to a Christian Nation" is superb at illustrating this.

    •  I disagree. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Predictor, SoCalSal, effervescent

      Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

      by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:39:42 AM PDT

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      •  With Which Bit? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kestrel9000, Deep Texan

        That religious messages are easily co-optable by multiple sides in a disagreement?  That historicaly religious differences have led to intolerance, hatred, and eventually violence?  That "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris is a good book/

        I didn't think I was saying anything particularly controversial.

        •  You were. (9+ / 0-)

          "a NECESSARY and UNAVOIDABLE consequence of religion"

          I disagree on this, but you are welcome to beleive what you wish.

          People misuse all sorts of idea systems.  I find Sam Harris boring.  He's about where I was when I was 12 years old and rejected religion.

          But this diary is not about atheism vrs. various faith systems.

          Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

          by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:45:27 AM PDT

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          •  I agree with TooFolk (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lgmcp, blueoasis, TooFolkGR, ColoTim, TomP

            while noting the unquestionably positive intent of the letter writer, operating, as he must, within the confines of his belief system.
            Or, put shorter: A for effort.
            We got a lady down the block who is a devout Christian and her car is plastered with bumper stickers delivering messages of peace and social justice.
            I like Christians like that.
            I'm not one of them...but I like them, and I wish there were more of them and less of the other kind.
            For every one of those, there's one less acolyte of Pat Robertson, John Hagee, and James Dobson.

            This is the world we live in/ And these are the hands we're given/Use them and let's start trying/To make it a place worth living in.

            by kestrel9000 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:51:02 AM PDT

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            •  I hear what you are saying. (6+ / 0-)

              Spiritual beliefs and religion seem to be a big part of being human, though.  

              I am far more sympathetic to religion and religious beliefs than I have been most of my life.

              For every Pat Robertson, there is a MLK, Jr., or Phillip Berigan.  

              Pooties and Woozles unite; you have nothing to lose but your leashes!

              by TomP on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 11:55:51 AM PDT

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              •  I hope that's true (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis, TooFolkGR, TomP

                It just seems like the Robertsons and Dobsons make better copy for the corporatists.
                Look at Robertson, or Dobson, vs. MLK or Berigan.
                Whose agenda is more likely to coopt someone to vote against their own interests?
                See, they get bitter...and they cling......
                ...well.
                Poor Obama. I've never seen someone get so lambasted for saying something so off-the cuff that was so absolutely fucking correct.
                They cling to the things that they know will never be taken from them.
                Not by John Mccain, Barack Obama, or anyone else.

                Tax the rich, feed the poor, until there are no rich no more.

                by kestrel9000 on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:00:39 PM PDT

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              •  I Would Say For Every (4+ / 0-)

                Thousand Pat Robertsons, there is an MLK Jr or a Phillip Berigan, and I would further say that the reason MLK Jr et. al. come to mind is that they rose and objected to the mainstream evil that was being committed in the name of their religion i.e., that was the problem in the first place.

                The reason this article exists for you to like it in the first place is that Christianity and Islam exist as "enemy religions" and someone can come forth and say, "No, they're not enemies, we should love them."

                If people were occasionally declaring war, committing mass murder, and denying others their constitutional rights over which NFL Football team they liked the best, there would be no substantive difference in the discussion.  But people don't do that.

                As you say yourself, I respect your difference opinion.

          •  Actually it's a consequence of tribalism (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Paul Ferguson

            And religion is just one way that tribes can be created. It is the worst part of human nature that a) we group people by various characteristics and b) we immediately consider any group to which we belong to be more worthy of "stuff" - money, land, power, glory - than any other group.

            It was this tendency that the rabbi Jesus of Nazareth fought so hard against - the Sermon on the Mount and the parable of the Good Samaritan being the best-known examples of this teaching. Sadly, those are lost on the bigots who are using both religion and nationality (do conservatives even consider Muslim citizens to be Americans?) to gain political power through prejudice. It is a old tactic, and one that religion only co-opted; it did not create that tactic.

            The speed with which someone tells you they're a Christian is inversely proportional to the probability they'll act like one.

            by CPT Doom on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 01:55:57 PM PDT

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    •  Uhhhhhhh (0+ / 0-)

      There are more extant copies of, say, Paul's letters than there are of Julius Caesar's account of his Gaul campaign.

      No one really questions the accuracy of Caesar's writings, but people love to play games with the NT which is far - far - better documented.

      Go figure.

      In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there always is a difference. - Yogi Berra

      by blue aardvark on Mon Aug 30, 2010 at 12:29:21 PM PDT

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