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View Diary: US Drops to 49th in the World for Life Expectancy, Recent Study Shows Obama's Health Plan Justified (302 comments)

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  •  So as an apologist (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    shaharazade, bigchin, elwior, eXtina, VTCC73

    for private insurance with scores of unverified anecdotal evidence on your side, how do you propose to keep CIGNA, et. al in the mix and lower per capita spending to match the rest of the Western industrialized nations that provide cradle-to-grave care?

    That was my very first question, and nobody has answered that one yet.

    Again, please do a little research of basic terms.
    We do not presently have single payer, as if we did, it would be the only payer.
    That's the single part.

    Are your parents ready to refuse Medicare and purchase private insurance?

    •  OK now I must answer your rediculous comment... (0+ / 0-)

      point by point...

      So as an apoligist for private insurance with scores of unverified anecdotal evidence on your side,

      First of all I am not an apoligist for any one payer of insured medical care...they all have flaws.  Insurance companies where properly regulated can be effective stewards of providing quality medical care.  In NJ since we have had pro-consumer insurance regulations for health insurance with no medical underwiting or recision allowed and an exchange which is very similar to the one contemplated by the HCR act, I can tell you, it works to keep quality up and cost down.  Overall my gold plated family plan has not increased in overall cost in the last 5 years (some years went up others went down).

      So while insurance companies (especially HMOs) tend to try to ration care too much, there is tremendous Waste, Fraud and Abuse in medicare...case and point is the silly mobile scooters that are "garaunteed covered" by Medicare...

      how do you propose to keep CIGNA, et. al in the mix and lower per capita spending to match the rest of the Western industrialized nations that provide cradle-to-grave care?

      Lower per-capita spending is more a function of controlling overall healthcare spending than controlling the insurance companies.  There are parts of the bill that address this, but I agree more needs to be done...basically health insurance companies get to keep 15% of their premiums for non-healthcare spending under the bill...

      That was my very first question, and nobody has answered that one yet.

      Again, please do a little research of basic terms.
      We do not presently have single payer, as if we did, it would be the only payer.
      That's the single part.

      Medicare for our seniors who are not poor is essentially a Single Payer system for that group of people...which is why I support opening up Medicare to all as a competitor to private insurance...

      Are your parents ready to refuse Medicare and purchase private insurance?

      My parents generally like Medicare and so do I so where is the question comming from...my point is that there is no silver bullet to the healthcare problem...

      Obama - Change I still believe in

      by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 08:52:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Even 15% (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        elwior, VTCC73

        is wasted relative to single payer.
        That overhead should be spent on medical care.

        For-profit financing in any form is, has been, and always will be morally and ethically repugnant.

        As is class-based access to care.

        Both are fiscally unsustainable.

        And no, conflating Medicare and single payer is intellectually disingenuous.

        Again, why do you so tenaciously defend for-profit health care financing?

        •  I defend the current HCR... (0+ / 0-)

          legislation as passed as a great incremental step in the right direction...

          And Medicare is single payer for that subgroup of Americans and you are disingenous to say otherwise...

          Also to discount our current Single Payer systems as net more efficient in delivering healthcare dollars does not take into account the estimated billions of dollars of Waste Fraud and Abuse that private health insurers do not have...

          The payer is not morally repugnant...is is morally repugnant when people get denied payment for medical care...

          Obama - Change I still believe in

          by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:08:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And who exactly is doing the denying? (0+ / 0-)

            Good to know there is no waste fraud and abuse in private health insurance.

            •  Very little compared to Medicare... (0+ / 0-)

              and Medicaid...

              Obama - Change I still believe in

              by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:26:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Again, why do you defend the industry so? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                eXtina

                What value does it bring to our collective health?

                Why are you enamored with illness profit?
                Personally I find the concept quite macabre.

                •  Well let me tell you why... (0+ / 0-)

                  collectively my wife and I have incurred over a million dollars of medical expenses over the past 8 years and have had all of those expenses paid to the penny of the contractual obligation with absolutely no denial of care...all by 3 different private insurers...

                  So with proper regulation...private insurers can work...and that can provide choice for those who want to keep private insurance...now should we have a program like a Medicare buy-in option, sure I am in favor of that...

                  But in this country as in some other universal healthcare countries, a properly regulated health insurance industry can be part of the solution...

                  Frankly, I do not want the only solution to be a government run insurance program, because if they make choices that I disagree with then I want the choice to get private insurance...

                  Talk to union members, state workers, teachers, health care providers and others that have "gold-plated" plans and they will tell you the same thing...not one size fits all...

                  Obama - Change I still believe in

                  by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:39:47 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are uncommonly fortunate. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    vacantlook, Ezekial 23 20

                    The "multiple levels of care based upon income level" is obscene.

                    "Medically necessary" is the only standard needed, and central to single payer.

                    This is not a consumer product, and until every American has access to care to the degree you and your wife have, those who don't will pay for it with their lives, their savings and their credit.

                    The only private insurers operating in countries with universal, affordable (under $7k per person) care are operating non-profit.

                    So your distaste with "government run" (disingenuous--"government financed" is accurate) health care will have you refusing Medicare when of age?

                    And what does it matter if the current legislation does not reduce costs instead of reducing the rate of increase of costs?

                    It's still unsustainable.

                    •  We will always have higher costs... (0+ / 0-)

                      becuase we allow 79 year olds who are still active to get hip replacement surgery and 65 year olds to get kidney transplants even if statistically they will only live for 2 years (but so far have lived for 5) post surgery...

                      You get me totally wrong...I love our single payer Medicare system and think it would be a great option for some to use if made available...

                      We will never get to $7K because we are better than them and focus not just on life but the quality of life...you want to take away quality of life from some to provide life for others...I want to provide both which costs money...

                      The current legislation reduces the rate of increase...that is true and I agree with that incremental goal...

                      Obama - Change I still believe in

                      by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:52:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Excuse me? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Charles CurtisStanley, Ozzie

                        Do you think there should be an age cut-off of under 65 for kidney transplants? Just how far under would you make the cut-off, pray tell?

                        I dare you to tell that to my mother. I need one. Tell her that you don't feel like paying for it and that my life has a financial expiration date.

                        Living kidney donor needed; type B, O, or incompatible (with paired donation). Drop me a note (see profile).

                        by Kitsap River on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 01:34:37 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  This is a silly statement...and totally untrue... (0+ / 0-)

                      The "multiple levels of care based upon income level" is obscene.

                      All countries with "single payer" and other similar setups all have programs for those who can afford additional premiums to obtain higher level medical care than those who have limited means...

                      Obama - Change I still believe in

                      by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:53:56 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Anyone who argues against... (0+ / 0-)

                      ..."government run" healthcare is tacitly saying that the Veterans Administration hospitals should all be privitized.  But despite so many people carping against "government run" healthcare, only some in the Tea Party advocate for abolishing the VA as it stands now.  If we're willing to give something to our veterans, shouldn't we be willing to give it to the rest of our country too?

                      •  And nobody is saying that... (0+ / 0-)

                        we should end government run healthcare...some are saying it should not be the only option...like my Dad who gets VA but also has access to doctors outside the VA for care he does not want to wait 3 months for an appointment...

                        Obama - Change I still believe in

                        by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 11:58:31 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  what it is with your fascination with precious (0+ / 0-)

                    metals to describe health insurance?

                    government 'run' health insurance does not preclude the existence of private insurance. what do you think the gov't is going to make it illegal to sell and buy private insurance?

                    Frankly, I do not want the only solution to be a government run insurance program, because if they make choices that I disagree with then I want the choice to get private insurance

                    you work for an insurance compa y don't you

                  •  This reminds me of.... (0+ / 0-)

                    a properly regulated health insurance industry can be part of the solution...

                    This reminds me of...
                    "A Big Mac can be part of a well-balanced diet". In other words, you can still eat a relatively well-balanced diet in spite of the fact that on occasion you eat 800 toxic calories.
                    It is possible to get decent health care under our system, in spite of the fact that we are shovelling health care dollars toward waste, fraud, abuse, and profit.
                    That doesn't mean we wouldn't be better off without the insurance company, as well as the Big Mac.    

                    To keep our faces turned toward change, and behave as free spirits in the presence of fate, that is strength undefeatable--Helen Keller

                    by kareylou on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 02:04:27 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  OK, how many US federal governments... (0+ / 0-)

          pay Medicare claims...Answer 1...hence Single Payer...

          maybe you are thinking of Medicaid which has State and Federal payers...

          Obama - Change I still believe in

          by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:10:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  When our health care system has only one payer (0+ / 0-)

            we will have single payer.

            Use your words any way you choose, but that is what is meant by the phrase single payer.

            •  The definition of single payer... (0+ / 0-)

              is for that group of people who have only one payer to go to...the federal government...so we have single payer for some groups in our country...you just choose to ignore that reality...

              Obama - Change I still believe in

              by dvogel001 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:42:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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