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View Diary: I Want To See My Son Marry Before I Die. (273 comments)

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  •  We've GOT to find a way to separate the civil (35+ / 0-)

    issue from the religious issue in people's minds. That's really the biggest thing that keeps us in this predicament.

    People forget that you can get a marriage license, go down to the courthouse to a Justice of the Peace (or similar official depending on where you live) and get married, And under the law, that civil ceremony is just as equal as if you got married in a church.

    It should make no difference, and there should be no religious argument over whether gay people can have a civil marriage. Yet, that's the biggest argument that the right-wing keeps going back to, the religious one.

    Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

    by JWSwift on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 11:15:18 AM PDT

    •  I agree... (18+ / 0-)

      I think the right uses religion as an argument knowing full well that this has nothing to do with religion.  These are the same people who would be opposed to basic civil unions.

      But when it comes to people not on the anti-gay right, the constant blurring of "religious" and "civil" is a problem in this debate.  Take President Obama - opposed to same-sex marriage on religious grounds, but supportive of "full civil unions."  Funny...I thought marriage was a full civil union.  Sigh.  We're in a rut on this issue, and we need to get out of it somehow.

      Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've been busy destroying the sanctity of marriage and eroding the moral fabric of society.

      by Chrislove on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 11:34:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course they know... (15+ / 0-)

        this has nothing to do with religeon.  It's all about having someone to hate.  The "Other" that will strike fear into the hearts of the mothers and fathers that their child may be "recruited".  The fear of being "outed" that makes many express self-hate to hide from themselves.  To cultivate fear of being different.

        Why do they want to opress these people?  Why do they need to hate?

        It seems it's just the hate and fear that holds them together.  Without that, they've got nothing.

        I am here to represent the democratic wing of the Democratic Party. Roar louder!

        by Josiah Bartlett on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 11:52:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right, the pundits making the TV ads and crap (5+ / 0-)

          like we all saw for Prop. 8 in CA, and Amendment 2 here in FL, they all know that they're trying to speciously apply a religious argument to something that should have nothing to do with religion (although some of them are just so over-the-top with this Christian Nation crap that they'd probably be happy having our country be a theocracy where our laws mirror religious doctrine, like some mirror-image of Iran or something).

          But, the argument they keep using to get people to vote for these amendments in state after state after state, and the argument they keep dragging-out to continue to support DOMA at the fedral level, is nearly always religious-based and intentionally blurs the two issues (civil vs. religious marriage) together. People see these ads and think, "Well, maybe we shouldn't change such a 'sacred' definition like marriage."

          It's pretty much the same argument that has everyone all whipped-up into a frenzy over hating anything Islamic--because they've attached the definition of "sacred" to the site of Ground Zero and everywhere around it. People are too afraid to stand up against anything framed in a religious argument (or at least a pro-Christianity argument here in this country, anyway).

          Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

          by JWSwift on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:36:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  As we recently saw with the governor of Hawaii, (14+ / 0-)

        even when the bigots claim to support civil unions they really don't ("it's too much like marriage").  Straight privilege more than semantics is the motivating factor.

      •  thank you for pointing this out! (9+ / 0-)

        Take President Obama - opposed to same-sex marriage on religious grounds, but supportive of "full civil unions."

        our president is a constitutional scholar. he knows the difference between the religious RITE of marriage and the civil RIGHT of marriage.

        even his most ardent supporters have an obligation not to allow him to hide behind semantics and cowardice on this issue.

        I believe that marriage is between a man and woman and I am not in favor of gay marriage... ~ barack obama in an interview with MTV in '08.

        ...sounds more like tony perkins, fred phelps, maggie gallagher & company than a "fierce advocate".

        "A time comes when silence is betrayal." ~ MLK, Jr...Where has CANDIDATE Obama gone?

        by liberaldemdave on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 01:40:03 PM PDT

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    •  One of the most pernicious tactics (7+ / 0-)

      of the haters is their shrieking about how if gay marriage becomes legal, your church will be forced to marry gays!!!!! If there were any basis to that at all, my church would oppose that on the ground of religious liberty, and we've been marrying gays (in Christ only, until recently) for 20 years now. But there's no basis for it. None whatsoever. It's pure, cynical fear-mongering.

      Fear shuts off many people's rational faculties. Gee, it's legal for Christians to marry, but no synagogue has to marry them! It's legal for atheists to get married, but no priest has to marry them! So if it's legal for gays to marry, maybe no religious institution has to marry them either? Ya think?

      But by turning it from a civil rights issue into a religious liberty issue (and thereby another battle in the culture war) they engage a whole population who might not otherwise be so engaged.

      Arizona: The Sundown State

      by James Robinson on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 01:54:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's legal for unbaptized heathens to marry (9+ / 0-)

        but the Catholic Church isn't required to marry them. That's why Cousin Pam had a Justice of the Peace and an outdoor wedding at my parents' house on the lake rather than a Catholic church wedding - her husband, a native of Australia, had never been baptized (and saw no reason to go through it).

        Of course they're screeching wingnuts about "those other people" having the same options that they did. :-P

        If it's
        Not your body
        Then it's
        Not your choice
        AND it's
        None of your damn business!

        by TheOtherMaven on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:38:38 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yup, exactly my point. (4+ / 0-)

        Most of the religious right-wing pundits and ads have not been pushing the "forcing churches to do gay marriages" meme for a while, but instead tend to go for the angle of somehow changing this "sacred" definition of marriage will start us on a slippery-slope to completely change ALL of our tradition and suddenly anarchy will reign! (Or something along those lines.) But still, they keep intentionally trying to frame the "definition" of a marriage in religious terms, since nobody wants to be seen as challenging something "sacred."

        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

        by JWSwift on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:40:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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