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View Diary: The Pope pissed me off today (127 comments)

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    •  OK, maximum estimate of 100K. (0+ / 0-)

      Now, if this is the largest in the 20th century, given WW II and other genocides which were arguably religiously based (e.g., the genocides in Bosnia, in which religion was the excuse used), how can you continue to argue that "atheism, by far, is responsible for more deaths than religion"?

      Unless you can add up many, many more cases such as Albania, you can't, I think.

      "Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win." Lazarus Long

      by rfall on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 12:40:06 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How much data do you want? (0+ / 0-)

        There's a lot, so maybe that explains it... ;-)

        Atrocities under Mengistu (r. 1974-91):
        14 Dec. 1994 NY Times:
        Killed in campaign of persecution after 1974: 150,000
        Died in forced relocation programs: 100,000
        Died in ensuing famines: 1,000,000
        27 Jan. 2000 Washington Post: as many as 1M deaths attributed to his govt.
        Agence France Presse (8 Oct. 1996): estimates of the number of killings range from 50,000 to 200,000.
        Harff & Gurr: 30,000 political opponents were victims of revolutionary politicide, 1974-79

        East Germany (1949-89): 100 000
        Communist Regime
        27 Oct. 1991 LA Times: 100,000 died in captivity or were executed for political offenses in E.G. (citing an official report by the unified German govt.)
        27 Oct 1991 Independent (London): 100,000 d., incl. 65,000 in or on way to post-war Soviet camps.
        Rummel: 70,000 democides, 1948-87
        9 April 1990 UPI: 90,000 (acc. to Association for the Victims of Stalinism) or 56,000 (other sources) Germans k./d in Soviet detention camps after WW2. Mostly hunger.
        23 June 1991 Chicago Tribune: 40,000 German political prisoners d. in Soviet-run camps after WW2
        WHPSI: 6,162 political executions, 1948-52
        12 Aug 2004 Agence France Presse: 1,065 died fleeing E. Germany; 227 died in Berlin, 190 after the construction of the Wall.

        Mongolia (1926-1991): 35 000
        Communist Regime
        The excavation of a mass grave containing the bodies of 5,000 Buddhist monks launched a rash of articles discussing Mongolia's Stalinist years (peak: 1937-39)
        22 Oct. 1991 AP, cites
        BBC: 35,000 death toll
        Head of the Presidential Commission for Victims of Repression: 100,000, maybe more
        23 Oct. 1991 NY Times: 100,000 people killed overall.
        23 Oct. 1991 San Diego Union-Tribune: 17,000 monks killed under Communists.
        Rummel: 100,000
        Kaplonski, Asian Studies (Nov 2000), review of Sandag and Kendall's Poisoned Arrows: The Stalin-Choibalsan Mongolian Massacres, 1921-1941: ca. 30,000-35,000 people killed, 1921-41, most in late 1930s


        Gosh, there's a lot!  And I have plenty more.

        •  Which of these multitude of reported (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          ...atrocities are directly traceable to "atheist philosophy" or the "attempt to force atheism on an unwilling population"?

          I would wager that few are.

          For instance, in none of the four links in your first comment do I see anything like a proclamation or explanation about "atheism did it".  For instance, under Mao Zedong's regime, many died due to forced relocation to the farms and villages where they were worked to death.  What this has to do with atheism is beyond me--it appeared, historically, with Mao's attempt to consolidate and hold power for his own reasons.

          I have looked at all your links, and my understanding of history and what I see there still doesn't support your contention that:

          The worst abuses of human rights, the largest amount of killing, the most disastrous socially constructed catastrophes of the last 100 years all had militant atheists at the controls.

          unless your definition of "militant atheists" includes all those cases where the perpetrator(s) held no particular religious views, or did not use those views to support their crimes, or simply chose other explanations (e.g., the need to keep the "country ethnically cleansed").  I would argue that such cases go into a third category "Not inspired by a particular religious view" rather than "inspired by militant atheism".

          Which means we're back at the beginning: were more people killed and brutalized as the result of religiously-motivated actions or governments, or atheist actions or government during the last century?  I think the case still favors my view, but you are free, of course, to disagree.

          "Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you; if you don't bet, you can't win." Lazarus Long

          by rfall on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 07:10:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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