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View Diary: FABULOUS YOM KIPPUR FRY'DAZE - (I/P Open Thread) (196 comments)

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  •  Yeah that was unbelievable (5+ / 0-)

    and that it was supported as well. That same poster later condemned the shootings in Hebron as a tactical "mistake" rather than as a murder.

    But later that day in another diary someone chimed in with calling Osama Bin Laden's and Al Qaeda a "Defensive Jihad"... Go figure on that one.

    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

    by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 10:49:36 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Please link (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Mets102

      I'd like to know who not to bother with.

    •  Allowing this coupled with allowing (7+ / 0-)

      the 'zionism is racism' meme is enlarging the pool of filth masquerading as 'opinion'.

      I certainly hope MB reconsiders his decision as the damage being done is real.

      "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

      by JNEREBEL on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 11:12:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  source? (0+ / 0-)

        'zionism is racism' meme

        you guys keep repeating this accusation and i've yet to hear it from anyone else. you put quotes around it. i've corrected you guys numerous times but you keep repeating it. also, if there's a zionist government that's not racist by all mean let us know. but i'll say it again and again, there's a difference between asserting zionism is racist and claiming it's racism.

        wiki:

        Legal

        The UN does not define "racism", however it does define "racial discrimination": according to the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,

           the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[5]

        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

        by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 04:31:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You were directly commenting (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          RedPencil, volleyboy1, Mets102

          and were HR'd yourself in a thread during one of the recent incidents here regarding this hideous claim so your

          i've yet to hear it from anyone else

          is utterly and completely false.

          "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

          by JNEREBEL on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:37:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i don't recall being hr'd (0+ / 0-)

            maybe i wasn't following it up. i recall posters saying zionism was racist and the retort coming back asserting the assertion was zionism is racism. i corrected the assertion numerous times. if you direct me to this alleged hr i'll have a better understanding of what you mean but as i said i don't recall getting hr'd nor do i think questioning this source is an hr offense and i don't know of any rule here making this an hr offense. obviously there are zionists who are not racist just like there are zionists who do not support the occupation. but zionism as it exists and thus far existed (aside from aspirations) functionally operates as racist.

            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

            by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:46:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  btw (0+ / 0-)

            i just reading down thread i saw this 'meme' here so my request for a source was satisfied.  maybe it has been around but i've not run into it til now. i still stand by my opinion saying something is racism is different than saying it's racist.

            volley just told me israel was a concept, so things are spiraling out. i wonder if france is a concept too and i just hadn't heard of it yet.. ee gads

            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

            by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:59:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  And the shooting of the three people whom IDF (0+ / 0-)

      killed and then said were neither terrorists nor militants is what, now?

    •  The killing civilian settlers comments have... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RedPencil, volleyboy1, Mets102

      ...been responded to, but I'd still like a direct link to the defense of Osama bin Laden comment(s).

      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 01:42:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is the comment... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, RedPencil, volleyboy1

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        I'm apprehensive about quoting it specifically because it's in the hiddens.

        Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

        by Mets102 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 01:50:59 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I sent that too you. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, RedPencil, Mets102

        It wasn't by an I/P regular - and it got donutted but here is the link.

        http://www.dailykos.com/...

        Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

        by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 01:51:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks. As I said previously... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Terra Mystica

          ...defending al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden is indefensible. And the commenter has been so informed.

          But now that I see the comment is not from a regular participant in I/P threads, that it got properly HRed, that it's an outlier unrepresentative (I think) of 99% of the people here from all sides, and that it has not been repeated, why is it getting so much attention?

          Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:07:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well MB - I think it is getting (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Paul in Berkeley, Mets102

            the play due to the environment and Toxicity that seems to be generating lately. It is an outlier comment, but, it seems this summer and still into the fall we are getting more and more wackiness invading the site.

            I can only speak for comments I have read and been emailed on the Pro-I side and most of that is that we (and I am speaking for those comments) feel that there has been in an upsurge in Anti-Semitic and Dog Whistle terminology (the Bin Laden comment is neither it is just insane) being used and accepted.

            Because these comments happen I think many are feeling (and I know this is true in my case) defensive. I am not asking for pity or crying about it - I am just explaining what is happening from my perspective.

            I think on our part we are trying to show you how bad things are getting and obviously defense of Osama Bin Laden is an indicator of that. When those folks feel welcome and even get uprated right after posting a comment like that. Egads.

            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

            by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:17:07 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think it goes to a belief for many of us... (5+ / 0-)

            that there's a certain level of what we consider unacceptable hostility and demonization being permitted towards Israel and those that support Israel between that comment, Friendlystranger's comments, and that Zionism is allowed to be called racism or racist (I actually used a logical proof to demonstrate that by calling Zionism racism or racist one is calling Zionists and others that support Israel racist).

            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

            by Mets102 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:20:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL we have got to stop making the same point (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mets102

              Although mine was on more general terms.

              Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

              by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:23:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  i believe (0+ / 0-)

              zionism is racist toward arabs/palestinians, and no amount of censorship is going to change that.

              it seems to me that if you want to stop people from observing how zionism is racism, it's up to you to try to show why jewish-only zionist settlements built on palestinian land with the support of the government of israel are not in fact racist.

              good luck with that.

            •  Zionism is not a indifferentiated bloc. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              volleyboy1

              Zionism takes many shapes and sizes. To call Zionism racism is to display an incredible ignorance and hatred about the subject or worse.

              •  Yep. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RedPencil, issy98

                It is an incredible ignorance and hatred... but not a surprise. Anyway, so much for my peaceful Fry'd Daze diary. Sigh....

                The next 24 hours should be a fruitful one for Team P. Most of Team I will be dealing with Yom Kippur. I can't wait (well actually I can) to see what gets dumped on site in that time.

                Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 03:42:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  could you point me (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                zannie

                to any expression of zionism that advocates absolute and total equality between jews and non-jews in israel/palestine?

                i'm willing to learn here. so far i've yet to see any that would give palestinians the exact same rights as jews.

                  •  unable to? (0+ / 0-)

                    oh ok, what i expected!

                    •  There is no way I could be expected to (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RedPencil, volleyboy1

                      educate someone like you when you make such a lame,debunked ridiculous allegation, like zionism is racism.

                      Have a look at this although I'm skeptical it will help an ideological dinosaur like you.

                      Also...denying Jews the right to a sovereign state of their own (the point of Zionism) is generally accepted as antisemitism worldwide so be careful.

                      •  i knew it (0+ / 0-)

                        wouldn't be long before the anti-semitism charge would appear.

                        my problem is with jews having a sovereign state at all. my problem is a movement, and this would be any religio-ethnic movement, that wants to establish its exclusive sovereignty where another society already exists.

                        and before you ask me if i have a problem with the US, i'll tell you absolutely i do.

                        I just glanced at the link you posted, full of half truths and lies and attempts to diminish the racism that zionism has inflicted on Arabs. shameful we have defenders of racism here.

                        equally, i would say to meteor blades, why are people here allowed to deny that zionism is racism?

                        if this is a progressive site, we should be supporting victims of racist ideologies.

                        •  correction (0+ / 0-)

                          my problem is not with jews having a sovereign state.

                        •  As I said "sigh." n/t (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          volleyboy1
                        •  Zionism is racism... (5+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          weasel, zannie, Eiron, Terra Mystica, remi

                          is false as various strains Zionism do exist. I've made the mistake of carelessly framing the argument in this way at one time. (But, imo, it's not antisemitic to say "Zionism is racism". It's simply inaccurate is all.)

                          Review Gideon Levy's thoughts on the issue:

                          Would you accept the label ‘anti-Zionist’ to characterise your views?

                          It depends what is ‘Zionism’. Because Zionism is a very fluid concept – who can define what is Zionism? If Zionism means the right of the Jews to have a state, I am a Zionist. If Zionism means occupation, I’m an anti-Zionist. So I never know how to answer this question. If Zionism means to have a Jewish state at the expense of being a democratic state, then I am anti-Zionist, because I truly believe those two definitions are contradictory – ‘Jewish’ and ‘democratic’. For me, Israel should be a democratic state.

                          I’ve just finished reading Yitzhak Laor’s ‘Myths of Liberal Zionism’, which is obviously very critical of the ‘Zionist Left’. What do you think of the politics of people like David Grossman, Amos Oz, A.B. Yehoshua and Meretz? Do they offer a sufficiently radical critique of Israeli policy, and if not, why is their critique so compromised?

                          First of all, I had Oz and Yehoshua at my home for dinner a few weeks ago, so I have to be very cautious in what I say, but I am very critical about this kind of thinking. You can add [Israeli President] Shimon Peres and Labor to this. This is the typical Israeli hypocrisy, and I in many ways appreciate [Israel’s far-right Foreign Minister Avigdor] Lieberman more than Shimon Peres, because with Lieberman, at least, what you see is what you get. It’s very clear what he stands for. With people like Shimon Peres or Meretz – and I don’t say they are identical – or Oz and Yehoshua and Grossman, they want to eat the cake and leave it complete, as we say in Hebrew. This doesn’t work.

                          I think they lack courage, some of them. Others, like Shimon Peres, are hypocrites who talk about peace and do the opposite. I think that Oz and Yehoshua and Grossman, who I know very well personally, mean well. But in many ways they are still chained in the Zionistic ideology. They haven’t released themselves from the old Zionistic ideology, which basically hasn’t changed since ’48 – namely, that the Jews have the right to this land, almost the exclusive right. They are trying to find their way to be Zionistic, and to be for peace, and to be for justice. The problem is that Zionism in its present meaning, in its common meaning, is contradictory to human rights, to equality, to democracy, and they don’t recognise it. It’s too hard for them to recognise it, to realise it. And therefore their position is an impossible position, because they want everything: they want Zionism, they want democracy, they want a Jewish state, but they want also rights for the Palestinians... it’s very nice to want everything, but you have to make your choice and they are not courageous enough to make the choice.

                          Now I agree with you that Zionism is nothing more than nationalist movement, fair game for criticism and condemnation if warranted. No moral, legal or ethical obligation to support it exists.

                          But you should be mindful of those who don't perceive Zionism in the way that Israel has practiced it for some sixty years - as a state policy which inevitably created a discriminatory and racist system of rule.

                          Hell, I've even heard that Zionism is synonymous with Jewish self-determination. It's a rare defining, but ah well...

                          The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                          by callmecassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:16:24 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  ok (3+ / 0-)

                            well, I'm not opposed to jews having a state at all. but I agree with Levy that it should be based on equality with Palestinians, all Palestinians, even refugees.

                            but i'm always told here that by supporting that kind of full equality, I am "denying jewish self-determination". so my brain then says, how is that so? does jewish self-determination most zionists mean that there can't be full equality with palestinians?

                            then i realize it's a numbers game. it all rests on jews being a majority, right? so full equality with palestinians can't be endorsed by (most) zionists because it would mean jews would become a minority? is that right? if that's so, then again, i'm not sure why that's the fault of palestinians. it seems to me that it's the fault of zionism as it is understood and applied by a majority of zionists.

                            so for levy, i wonder, does he mean he believes in the rights of jews to have a state whether or not they are a majority or a minority? that is, just a homeland? i agree fully with that.

                          •  Well... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie, Terra Mystica, remi

                            but i'm always told here that by supporting that kind of full equality, I am "denying jewish self-determination".

                            ...they're wrong, of course.

                            First off, Jewish self-determination has limitations ending where another people's self-determination begins. Some folks don't seem to get this and you'll run into a few of them here.

                            I try to break from the conversation when it gets to the "I am denying jewish self-determination" which usually arises when the person is asked to confront certain contradictions, inconsistencies and hypocrisies.

                            if that's so, then again, i'm not sure why that's the fault of palestinians.

                            Palestinians are not wrong for rejecting Zionism. Any people found in their position would reject Zionism as practiced by Israel. And many Palestinian citizens of Israel work tirelessly (alongside Jewish citizens) to help Israel become a liberal, democratic nation that recognizes all of its citizens as equals - which it most certainly does not do at the moment.

                            As for Levy, I think he believes in and wants a democratic state more than a Jewish one. So, I would assume that the demographic numbers wouldn't matter to him.

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:28:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When I was a kid we used to view solar eclipses (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie, callmecassandra

                            by putting a sheet of paper on the inside of a cardboard box and a pinprick (I was always amazed at that) in the other end.  When the pinhole side was pointed at the sun the terminus and progression of the eclipse became crystal clear.  So simple, so effective.

                            I'm always reminded of that when I read your comments.

                            Kind of cassandra-like, eh?  :)

                            Cheers and thanks.

                            "Dega dega dega dega. Break up the concrete..." The Pretenders

                            by Terra Mystica on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 08:30:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ...:)! nt (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie, Terra Mystica

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 08:52:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  really good comment, thanks /nt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            callmecassandra

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 11:37:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            Just like Palestinian nationalism, as practiced by groups like Hamas, is racist -- it espouses the notion that the land is somehow Palestinian, and Jews, because they are not Palestinian, have no rights there.

                            So Zionism is only as racist as Palestinian nationalism is racist.

                            In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

                            by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 09:38:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Dude? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            zannie

                            So Zionism is only as racist as Palestinian nationalism is racist.

                            Is this for your benefit or mine?

                            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                            by callmecassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 10:35:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  From the Israeli Declaration of Independence (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  RedPencil, issy98

                  Here is this....

                  THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

                  http://www.mfa.gov.il/...

                  The only right you will not see advocated is Hoq' Ha Shvut. If that for you is the lynchpin then no you will never see 100% exactly the same laws being advocated. However there are many examples of 99.999% equality in those laws. However, I suspect you know that going into your question.

                  Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                  by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 04:02:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  i'm sure (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie

                    you're well aware that the reality on the ground does not match that piece of paper, right?

                    just like the US Declaration of Independence could talk about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and be referring to only a segment of the population.

                    what about in terms of land rights? can arabs buy land wherever they want? what about funding for schools and hospitals and infrastructure? what about marriage? can arabs marry palestinians outside of israel?

                    these are basic questions not related to the law of return, even though yes, you're right, i don't see how one can say that such a big issue where one group has more rights than another can be dismissed. equal means equal, not equal in everything except so and so...

                    •  It's more complicated than you are saying (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RedPencil, issy98

                      I have to say though I appreciate your tone in this conversation.

                      That said.. True the reality has not matched the ideal we all know that. But that does not make a country racist or Apartheid. Israel is Sixty years old, and it was not formed along the same lines as an American Democracy. It's not perfect but, it is a far shot better than most other places. That is not an excuse. There are a ton of things they can do to improve their civil rights. But I believe at least they try. Again, not an excuse but you don't as they say "throw the baby out with the bath water".

                      As to land rights. Nope not equal in practice. But there are groups in Israel working on that. Zionist groups btw. As for marriage laws that affects Jews as well. They are stupid laws. For instance remi, I could not have married my wife in Israel and I am a Jewish Zionist. It is not a Jews v Arabs thing. Again though you should remember Israel was not created to be the United States of Israel. It has a different dynamic.

                      The Right of Return for Jews to Israel makes sense in the context that Israel is a State based on the historic homeland of the Jewish People but nowhere  does it say or does it advocate that non-Jewish people are not equal or should not be equal.

                      Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                      by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 04:41:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i can see (0+ / 0-)

                        why the general phrase "zionism is racism" is not specific enough. and i want to be clear that i don't think all zionists are racists, not in the least. and i do know that as a historic phenomenon that it mainly comes from the persecution of the jewish people and for that reason, like black nationalism, it has a different basis and origin than something like german nationalism in wwii.

                        so i'm aware of all that, and the issue for me in reading more and more about this question is the reality on the ground and the very basic fact of wanting to claim land for a particular group, that is to claim full sovereignty on that land, when there's already people there.

                        have you read the history of liberia? it's not exactly the same of course, but you had a persecuted group of african americans going back to africa to their roots and not integrating into the society that was already there. it's an interesting parallel, but i need think it over more.

                  •  that's a paragraph (0+ / 0-)

                    a piece of paper, a declaration. israel doesn't look like that. have you read The pharaoh of Jerusalem?

                    "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                    by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 04:40:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  remi asked about advocacy (0+ / 0-)

                      I responded - please see my response to him.

                      Look, I lived there in my own apartment for a year, I know what Israel is and what it looks like. Their Declaration of Independence is something to strive towards. They aren't there yet and certain things about the ruling coalition are a direct step away from that. But, they are more along the road to that then anyone else in the area (except maybe Turkey). Now the occupation is a different ball of wax. It is destroying Israel. That is why us Two State advocates are so fired up on the Peace Talks.

                      I usually fight with weasel "tooth and nail" but in one of the Fry'daze he made a very inciteful remark regarding two state advocacy and the talks. I recommend looking at it for insight.

                      Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                      by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 04:47:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  if you tell me (0+ / 0-)

                        what diary it is in i will check it out.

                        They aren't there yet and certain things about the ruling coalition are a direct step away from that. But, they are more along the road to that then anyone else in the area

                        i got that and it's one of the reasons i think zionism can exist as non racist. but as you pointed out, it just isn't there yet and until you can unglue the occupation from the zionist state the two go hand in hand.

                        "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                        by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:24:49 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  ooops typo (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mets102

                        should be "insightful" not "inciteful"... my bad....

                        I am looking for the link it might take a bit, and if I run out of time - sundown in in a short bit, I will have to get it to you some time later.

                        Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:34:38 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  great (0+ / 0-)

                          i would like to see that. hope your yom kipper is rewarding.

                          "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                          by zannie on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 11:45:20 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Volley, I know you won't see this... (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          psychodrew, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                          for a few hours yet because Yom Kippur is not over on the West Coast yet.  I wish I could have rec'ed all your comments here, but many of them were no longer rec'able by the time I got to them.  Hope you are still having an easy fast as I type this.

                          Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                          by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 05:18:34 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Thanks Mets (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            Baruch Ha'shem, it was easy. I have to admit this passage:

                            The Lord will guide you always;
                            He will slake your thirst in parched places
                            And give strength to your bones.
                            You shall be like a watered garden,
                            Like a spring whose waters do not fail.

                            --Isiah 58:11

                            http://www.jtsa.edu/...

                            Really helped me out. It really is an important reading.

                            I did it full on this year - no food, no water, no driving, no handling money - lots of prayer. I feel better than I have in years. Go figure.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:23:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Great to hear... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            I didn't do the Torah study.  Sat down with my copy of Sefer Breisheit that has English translations of the text and the Rashi, but I wasn't able to press forward last night.  I did go to shul both last night and this evening, though.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:29:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't go to shul but I read all the Torah (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            portions and then some... I walked 3 miles (round trip) to watch my kiddies play soccer, and really really prayed. It was a very reflective time.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:36:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            that's a lot of walking and very impressive that you did that with no food or drink.  Makes the 2 blocks I had to walk to shul twice seem like nothing.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:42:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yasher Koach volley (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            But walking three miles?????  Glad you didn't pass out.  

                            I also rec your comments in spirit, JNEREBEL's, Mets' and others.  Didn't know what I'd come back to in this diary.  There's relief and yet we'll see what happens in practice.  

                          •  לא, זה לא &# (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            I would say thanks to the passage quoted above and thanks to Krav training.... but three miles is nothing. Just to get to the next level I have to do a five mile run and then train for four hours straight. Now, if I can do that.. then you can comment on strength (which anyone can really do it - it is just a matter or willpower)

                            This may sound corny but think of the trials that our people have had to overcome. Walking three miles through a suburban neighborhood and watching Ha Yeladim sheli play soccer. It was very easy and enjoyable.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:23:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL the hebrew didn't translate (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            I was saying, Lo, Zeh Lo Kashe (No, it was not hard)... Sorry for that.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:24:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  For whatever reason... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            Hebrew can and does get screwed up in the subject line, but works just fine in the comment box.  And one quibble, wouldn't it be "Zeh lo haiyah..." if you're saying was, as oppose to "Zeh lo...", which would translate as "No, it is not hard"? ;-)

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:31:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hmmm. I think you could say either. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            What volley said was in general "it's not hard"  What you said is "it wasn't hard."

                            But...trust me, volley for many people, it's hard or impossible.  Good health and stamina is are blessings.

                          •  True enough (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:46:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Agreed n/t (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:48:53 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I had Hebrew working for a few days (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            but now it's typing some words left to right, some right to left.

                            חבל

                            but my spelling and typing in Hebrew are pretty bad, so less chance to mess up I guess. :-)
                             

                          •  You can always... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            use Google translate and just paste the words in to save time typing and clean up spelling.  Also, you should be able to change the direction of the writing direction to right-to-left, at least I can do it really easy in Safari.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 10:17:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Are you telling me you cheat? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            Gasp!  J/k

                            Yes I did double-check it, but I actually typed that above word.  

                            Someone showed me how to change the direction and I did.  But it doesn't seem to work on all words.  I was trying to type Yesh Li Ivrit.  Aval ze yatza Shi...and then started typing the second word in the middle of the first...  Not pretty.  It looks like this:

                            'של' עבר'ת

                            LOL.  Thanks PC.

                          •  LMAO... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            And I'm too stubborn to cheat. If I need to find an occasional word I'll use Google Translate, but I almost never cut and paste.  I'll switch to Hebrew and manually type.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 10:39:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Stubbornness is a good quality (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            many times.  Don't I know.

                            Damn, that's impressive then.  You remember quite a lot.  I'm lucky because I get to hear spoken Hebrew frequently, so that's never really gone out of usage for me.

                          •  A lot of it is latent... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            I don't think I remember something, and then when I actually start using some Hebrew it comes back to me.  It happens when I go to shul for Rosh Hashanah and spend two mornings in shul (four hours each day goes a long way, even if it's much more formal and somewhat archaic Hebrew).  It's also happened here because all of a sudden I'm in a place where people are using Hebrew here and there.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 11:28:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh you went Rosh Hashanah too? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            I thought you didn't get to go then.  My favorite parts are actually the Aramaic.  Sounds so rhythmical and different.  

                            It sure was relaxing to have a day of news blackout.

                            The latent knowledge is a most fascinating thing.  I get that with French sometimes.  Doubt that I'll ever get it all back though.

                            How did you find this site anyway and whatever possessed you to start posting diaries in I/P? ;)  I think these diaries should have a "Wait, are you sure you really want to enter?" and a Sakana (danger) warning sign.  LMAO.  I sure could've used one.  No offense to volley, you or any other diarist, but y'all know what I mean.

                          •  I didn't go this Rosh Hashanah... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            I'm talking about those years when I do go.  Having 2 days of 4+ hours of Hebrew makes a difference and it comes back.  With the latent knowledge, I bet if you spent 6 months or a year in France it would come back fairly quickly.  Still, if I ever did decide to make aliyah, I would take Hebrew classes here first so that my level when studying in ulpan in Israel was that much higher.

                            I've been lurking here off and on probably for 4-5 years, but only signed up about a year-and-a-half ago.  I have a friend that wrote a decent amount of diaries, but eventually became a lurker (although he did post a comment in the past week).  His UID is like in the 20,000s or 30,000s.

                            As for getting into I/P, it was the whole Gaza mess and hearing the beating Israel was taking without even bothering to investigate what had actually happened.  A lot of that came out in venting in my first I/P diary about the fact that there shouldn't be yet another immediate rush to condemn Israel.

                            Finally, with respect to the idea of a warning, I understand perfectly.  However, considering the very real dangers Israelis face everyday, the pie fights we get into here are absolutely nothing in comparison.  Worst that happens here is someone insults me and I move on.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 12:17:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You may get the record for longest lurking (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            period.  Wow.  I was probably only here a month or two before I signed up.  It was election time b/t McCain and Obama.  It was great to find other people so into that election. There was one diary series that actually got me posting regularly.  Although the series is still here, the editor got the boot, sadly.

                            Those first I/P diaries of yours were certainly trial by fire.  Hope you didn't mind the questions, I always am curious what drew other people in.  For myself, the Gaza war was not too much after I signed up.  There were many rec list I/P diaries.  My reaction was...it was eye-opening, shall we say.  

                            Of course when you're talking about the physical dangers in Israel/Palestine, nothing here compares.  The insults don't bother me, it's other things.  But fortunately, I'm still in the holiday frame of mind, so I won't elaborate at this point. :)

                            6 mos in Paris sounds wonderful right about now.  And UID in the 20-30,000?  Why that's almost an antique.

                            Lila Tov to you and vb.  Enjoyed the post-holiday chat.

                             

                               

                          •  Todah... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker, volleyboy1

                            And I think the only reason I really signed up initially is because I wanted to comment in my friend's diary.  It's funny the reason things can happen.  Despite reading some blogs, I never caught on to the whole blogging thing until recently.  What brought me somewhat loyally to here was during the 2008 primary season when I really started reading.  I was an Obama supporter in the primaries (third choice behind Gore and then Biden) despite being from New York.

                            Questions are fine.  I've always been taught that questioning is good.

                            As for trial by fire, yeah, I think that's a pretty good line to describe what it was like when I jumped back in here and it was into I/P.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 01:15:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So True, Mets (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            It's funny the reason things can happen.

                            The smallest occurences or happenstance lead to big change.

                            I'm so glad you understand the question thing.  My parents always said that as well.

                            Someone helped me out with the Hebrew today and...

                            יש לי עברית במחשב

                            Finally!

                            Also learned a site that has Israeli TV shows.  So that should help me brush up.  I watched a few clips from their version of American Idol (Cochav Nolad) and the beginning of a political satire show (Eretz Nehederet).  

                          •  :-) ... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            left off the "שלי" at the end though.

                            How difficult is it to switch between languages?

                            The double-edged sword for me is that my Hebrew isn't good enough where I can get by without subtitles, but if I have subtitles I don't know if I'd ever learn by watching.  Although, it has led to the situations where I do know the words and the subtitle precedes the line, thereby causing me to say it to myself in my head before it's actually spoken on screen.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 08:14:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I know, I got lazy (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            I should've put on the שלי

                            It's not that hard to switch between languages, once you've finally got it installed properly (!).  There's a shortcut, you press Left Alt + Shift.  Then press it again when you want to switch back.  

                            Yeah, we've got opposite problems in Hebrew sort of.  My typing skills are not there, but my understanding fluency is good.  Meanwhile you're planning to IM in Hebrew?  If I tried that, it would take lightyears especially since I don't know the keyboard and keep having to refer back to the guide.  It'll come though...at least I hope.  

                            I think subtitled films do help.  I remember we watched quite a few when I studied French.  It was cumulative.  As we watched more, we had to rely less on the subtitles.  But everybody has different ways they learn best.  

                          •  Well... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            with my iPhone it's really simple because it's just pressing one key and the keyboard switches between American English and Hebrew.  As for when I'm typing on my computer, I have a Hebrew keyboard layout that I printed out, so when I'm typing in Hebrew I look at it (which I can do since I touch type).

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 08:56:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  v'laila tov gam at n/t (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 01:16:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As for I.P. on DKos (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker, Mets102

                            I came here because of the election and I supported Pres. Obama (well, candidate Obama at the time). Then I saw my first I/P diary and waded in full bore. I was immediately accused of being a sock or zombie and got HR'd to oblivion. But I learned from people here - more than I had known and learned how to discuss here (not that I am good at it). People realized I was being honest in my posting and gradually things got better.

                            I really like this site and the info. I get here is pretty good. I feel informed when talking to conservative friends. I/P.... I care, what can I tell you.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 08:14:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So we all supported Obama from the primaries (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            :)

                            I remember you being around when I first started posting, with much different views.  But I don't remember those sock accusations - heh.  Maybe because I didn't have TU.  Anyone new in I/P is pretty much under suspicion.  

                            You're being modest, you're quite good at it.

                          •  first started posting in I/P that is. nt (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, volleyboy1, Mets102
                          •  I think I remember first meeting you (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            in the non-I-P diaries of someone who left and said she'd give her fans a wink if/when she ever returned.

                            Did you ever get that wink?  

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon Sep 20, 2010 at 10:21:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you're talking about who I think (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, Mets102

                            you're talking about, she's not back yet.  But I believe some people here stay in touch with her.  She came back briefly and then left again, sadly.  She made this place a better place just by being here. :)  Corny, but true.

                            But, I didn't remember that's where we specifically met.  How fun to be reminded.  Now, I'm curious which diary it was.

                            Unless I've got the poster wrong. ;)  In that case...nevermind.

                          •  Some clues: (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            She posted late at night, almost every night.  Sig began with New and ended with a number...I was a huge fan and the discussions were always worthwhile and intense.

                            Can't remember which diary it was, but I do remember asking you about your sig.  Or maybe that was in a Christmas eve diary.  

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Mon Sep 20, 2010 at 09:26:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok this is so odd (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            The person I'm thinking of fits that description, but not the screen name.  We're both talking about a female poster, who posted late at night and of whom we were both big fans.  And she left.  And she, could be two different shes.  LOL.  I wish the search engine would let us search by specific date or date range, not just 2 yrs to present.  

                            I totally remember that Christmas Eve diary and that exact conversation.  I just went back and reviewed that diary.  The comments are still hilarious.  I never fully answered your question, did I?

                          •  You can search a date range... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker, volleyboy1

                            the first one is what you're talking about, which is the "From", the one right next to it, "To" can be adjusted for the desired range.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Mon Sep 20, 2010 at 11:43:41 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm so stumped (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            and I'm obviously forgetting someone.  So now I'm stumped and guilty. :p

                            But wow, I certainly saw some interesting comments on my search.  Both mine and referring to me.  I spent way too much time here.

                          •  why guilty? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            now I'm stumped and guilty

                            Oh yeah, you're Jewish.

                            :)

                            (I'll email you her sig...shhh)

                            Consider adopting a homeless pet at PAWS.org (Progressive Animal Welfare Society)

                            by hikerbiker on Tue Sep 21, 2010 at 09:48:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You got it, LOL. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102

                            Oh yeah, you're Jewish.

                            I owe you an email anyway.  ::Guilt::

                            Something serious though, hiker, please give your input to the Zionism is racism debate.  MB is waiting to hear from more people.  Your voice and perspective is an important one.  The link for the current debate.  You've already seen I see, by the rec.  But I think MB is trying to hear from most of the regulars.

                          •  I just... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 at 10:19:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nah I cheat all the time on that (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            Ani Lo Zocher ha ivriti Kol Kach tov. It's bben too long since I spoke it on a daily basis. I am actually going to start taking classes in it again.
                            And my Israeli Krav friends help too.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 11:29:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  One of my close friends... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            just got a Mac.  Both of us have wanted to improve our Hebrew, so we might actually be able to kill two birds with one stone.  We'll be able to use Hebrew while IMing and because of that it could also lead to remembering which keys correspond to which letter.

                            If you want to do Hebrew typing I found this Hebrew keyboard layout and printed it out for myself.  Not quite the same as having it right on the keys, but I haven't really looked to see if I could find the stickers to put on the keys.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 11:34:17 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You seem to remember quite a lot though (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            volleyboy1, Mets102

                            at least when I post in transliteration, you seem to understand quite a bit.  As well as when you post in transliteration.

                            That's amazing, you're going to formal classes.  Ok you two are really motivating me. :) Motivation or peer pressure - haha.  And you get the slang from your Krav teacher.    And I don't know that many curse words.

                          •  I was going to try to have subject line... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            in Hebrew, but it acted up when I previewed, so my originally-planned comment begins with the Hebrew below:

                            זאת ממש טובה את רוצה ללמוד עברית

                            As for swearing, I don't know much in the way of swearing either (I only know f*** you/GFY (I wonder if Hebrew is the only language where they're gender-specific), SOB, and bitch).  Maybe there's some Israeli George Carlin we could watch to pick up those words, which, IMO, are usually the best words to know in any language (that could be the NYC driver in me talking).

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 12:28:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I usually curse in Arabic (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker, Mets102

                            That was what I did in Israel except for Ben-Zonah...

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 08:19:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am not going to formal classes yet (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, hikerbiker, Mets102

                            I want to start in Jan. or sometime studying. My hebrew used to be passable (I did have my own apt. in Ramat Eshkol after all, for a year at least). But that was a long time ago, and subsequent trips have all been in English with some hebrew thrown in. It's been way too long though. I practice when I can at Krav.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 08:18:46 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When someone does a Torah reading (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            people say "Yasher Koach" afterwards.  So I was kind of playing around with that.  Eh...Hebrew to English to blog word play...not as easy as it looks.  It's a way of congratulating someone for something they did.

                            At any rate, you did good, but are you saying you'd like to run five miles while fasting or are you training for a marathon?

                          •  Ah I was being to literal (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            haha, my bad.

                            No I have to run that just as a part of a five hour test to move from level P1 to level P2 in Krav Maga.

                            Thanks, getting through the bible is far harder than any three mile run... heh

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:46:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Holy smokes (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            hikerbiker, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            Your Krav Maga teacher doesn't kid around, does he?

                            I've read most of it in English for school (twice), but not how you mean.  Yes I would agree, very tough.

                          •  Gentile here, but (4+ / 0-)

                            don't you think that this is what your people have always dreamed of for their decendants?

                            This may sound corny but think of the trials that our people have had to overcome. Walking three miles through a suburban neighborhood and watching Ha Yeladim sheli play soccer. It was very easy and enjoyable.

                            Maybe by living your life, you are living their dream.

                            Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

                            by psychodrew on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:27:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Great thought drew (4+ / 0-)

                            You might be right.

                            You just made my Yom Kippur reflection that much more meaningful.

                            Thank you for that.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:44:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's the reason I say... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, volleyboy1

                            Zionism can very simply be boiled down to the two lines before last in Hatikvah:

                            התקוה בת שנות אלפים
                            להיות עם חפשי בארצנו

                            The hope of 2,000 years
                            To be a free people in our land

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:47:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Didn't mean to leave you out (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            Drew in my thanks for the post-holiday chat.

                            This was a touching comment.

                          •  I'm glad I was (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            able to a positive force for once. ;)

                            Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

                            by psychodrew on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 09:05:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Glad to hear it was a meaningful day for you (4+ / 0-)

                            I always feel somewhat conflicted in my observance of Yom Kippur. I was raised fairly secular, so I never fasted and hardly ever went to shul growing up. After I married, I accompanied my wife to shul, and eventually started fasting with her. She never asked me to fast, but I knew she would appreciate not fasting alone, and that was enough of a reason for me. Now we go with our kids to a Reconstructionist congregation, and there is enough music, singing,  and hippie-left sermons and discussions that I feel I can get something out of it. But I am still at heart a secular Jew, and have a hard time saying the prayers -- even to a Reconstructionist non-anthropomorphic "hashem." That part of it will always be a struggle for me -- reconciling my (very) strong Jewish identification with my non-belief.

                          •  And those of us... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            of a more religious inclination would say that it was all Hashem helping you through that and making it easy for you.

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:35:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh it was... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            believe me - I recognize that.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:37:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  :-) n/t (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            psychodrew, thebluecrayon, volleyboy1

                            Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                            by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:42:07 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See how I just rebutted weasels (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            livosh1, psychodrew, Mets102

                            quasi legalistic argument. Add in your own thoughts. I am tired of this bullshit villification. Zionism is not racism in practice or in theory. There are problems in practical application but, one of them is not a racist problem. It is a political issue.

                            Oh and btw, Gideon Levy, and everyone else in the marginal 2% can yap as much as they like - they don't speak for the majority nor do they represent that thought.

                            As an intellectual premise that is one thing but in practical terms..... who gives a crap - he is self admittedly irrelevant.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:17:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Zionism is not racism. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, volleyboy1, Mets102

                            And those that make that argument know it. Calling Zionism racism is a clever way of de-legitimizing Zionism--and thus--the Jewish State.

                            Disclaimer: The contents of this comment are just my opinion.

                            by psychodrew on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:34:00 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Exactly this is just the latest (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, psychodrew, Mets102

                            tactic in trying to de-legitimize Israel. It's a pretty lame one at that.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:40:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Actually, I think I know one-- (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eiron, Terra Mystica, JesseCW, remi

                  the non-statist zionism of Judah Manges, explained in this post by Jerry Haber at his blog, the Magnes Zionist.

                  I start from the position of a liberal nationalist, one that sees the value for the flourishing of its citizens in a nation state. (On "liberal nationalism" you can read the good overview in the article on Nationalism in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.) Because I am a liberal nationalist, I cannot be a statist Zionist, because by identifying the Jewish state as a state of the Jewish nation, I am automatically cutting off non-Jews from full membership in that state.

                  The point is that even if Jews do constitute a nation, or feel part of a nation, etc., it is not the sort of nation that liberal nation-states are constituted of, and for good reason -- it is a nation of which a national religion constituted a major part, whether one accepted it or rebelled against it, and, for better or for worse, that is the way it has played out in history.
                  The failure of Israel to be a liberal democracy and a nation-state of the Jews is well-known, and I hope I don't have to bring the familiar arguments. That fact that Israel is a settler-state founded on the thwarted national dreams of a native population compounds the problem, but, frankly, there would be problems even if Israel had been founded in a wilderness bereft of people.
                  But while Israel has, I believe, failed as a liberal state of the Jews, it need not be a failure as a liberal nation-state of all its people -- of the Israeli people, Jews and non-Jews, Palestinians and Jews.

                  A guilty conscience never feels secure.

                  by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:20:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  thanks for that (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Terra Mystica, Flyswatterbanjo

                    but i'm not sure I understand it fully. A non-statist zionist, meaning he believes in a state of all its people rather than only those of a particular religious/ethnic group?

                    but if so, isn't that exactly what most zionists oppose because they think it would mean the end of zionism?

                    so how is that an operational zionism? it reads more to me as anti-zionism, because it doesn't seem based on identifying israel as a jewish state.

                    •  No, it's not anti-zionist. Haber is a zionist, (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Rusty Pipes, Eiron, Terra Mystica, JesseCW

                      but probably not any kind of zionist you've ever heard about before, and probably not the kind that VBoy1 and others are talking about when they say there are many kinds if zionism. Yes, Haber believes in a state for all its people. He is a humanist. And he's not conflicted at all. What Vboy and others describe, however, and what most of the world thinks of as zionism, is an ethnic chauvinism at the expense of indigenous people, to put it kindly, which is why they get all in a twist when these obviously illiberal positions conflict with their otherwise liberal outlook.

                      You should read the entire post. Here's more, including how he defines zionism:

                      But what I wanted to say here is that there can be zionism -- the feeling of the centrality of the Land of Israel for the Jewish people -- without a Jewish state as presently conceived. The conditions were not ripe for such a zionism in the forties, but they are much better now.

                      and

                      I have lived in Israel on-and-off for over thirty years, and I can tell you that there is an Israeli national culture, and it is predominantly, though not exclusively, Hebraic and Jewish. Israeli Palestinian culture is also Israeli, and it is a culture which I admire and respect, and feel part of my own -- not as Jew, although I find it close to my own, but as an Israeli.
                      Within such a Israeli space, Jewish culture can flourish for those who want it to, and I think that in that sense, Israel could be a homeland for the Jewish people, a cultural center (note that I do not say, THE cultural center) that resonates with the historic associations of the Land of Israel for the Jewish people.
                      Look, I told you I was a Zionist, so if you are anti- or post- or non-, this won't speak to you. But for Zionism to flourish in a liberal democracy, one cannot have a Jewish state as constituted now. The law of return would have to be abolished -- in its stead could be an immigration law which favors certain groups (Jewish and Palestinian) but does not grant citizenship automatically to any quasi-religio-ethnic group. In such a state, one would not be forever counting heads to see whether there is a Jewish majority -- because at every moment, the state would consist of a 100% of Israeli citizens.

                      A guilty conscience never feels secure.

                      by Flyswatterbanjo on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:58:25 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  exceot (0+ / 0-)

              If A supports Israel (Z), then A is a Zionist (P)

              i don't think this is true. i'm sure there are people who support israel as a nation of equal rights for all citizens. and there are plenty of israelis and jews who are not zionists therefore if israel is a state for all jews that would obviously include the non zionists.

              "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

              by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:48:38 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No...I knew that would come up (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mets102, issy98

                Israel is a concept not just a state name. Israel is the concept of a Jewish Homeland embodied in the nation known as Israel. Let's please drop the game where a One State could be called Israel. It is a false game. Israel as he means it and as the Israelis themselves mean it is as the National Homeland of and by the Jewish People.

                Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:51:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  so for all intents and purposes around here (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  remi

                  when we say israel were talking about a concept? i thought we were referencing the county.

                  "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                  by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:54:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  right (0+ / 0-)

                  and i see no reason why it can't continue to be one no matter who else resides their. i share my homeland w/others, it doesn't make it less mine. america is also the homeland of native americans and it's your homeland too.

                  "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                  by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:03:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But the history of Jews in the world is different (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Mets102, issy98

                    AND Israel was NOT formed as the U.S. of Israel. How are you not getting that?

                    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:05:02 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Rusty Pipes

                      i didn't say it was a united states. but a united state doesn't sound so bad. we're always hearing about a united jerusalem. here's the thing volley, it's israel that keeps expanding and doesn't want to share. i'm just being open to what appears to becoming the inevitable and i'm open also. i don't think it's me you have to concern yourself with i think it's the settlers and those people whose concept of israel is on a more expansive region.

                      the history of Jews in the world is different

                      everybody's different but luckily we have international laws and when the state of israel was founded ethnically cleansing the palestinian population wasn't part of the agreement. i don't care how different people are we have international standards and israel is part of the global community. i'm open to israel being a nice place, it just isn't yet. i'm not sure how negotiating w/people who don't represent the palestinian people is going to bring about peace but like i said, i'm open.

                      "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                      by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 07:37:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Nahchon n/t (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  thebluecrayon

                  Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                  by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 05:19:57 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I hope your allowance of the meme (6+ / 0-)

            'zionism is racism' receives more attention.

            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

            by JNEREBEL on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:23:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  wow (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zannie

              so now there's an effort to prevent people from talking about how zionism is racist.

              Amazing! But it won't work, because too many people know how zionism has dealt with arabs. trying to prevent discussion of this issue just has the effect of endorsing that racism against arabs. apparently some here have no problem with that.

              •  There is a difference between... (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JNEREBEL, RedPencil, volleyboy1, issy98

                ...how Israeli policies have affected the Arab populations (both within Israel and in the occupied areas) and with the concept of Zionism itself being racist. Those who argue that it's not have made a very good case that the Zionism-is-inherently-racist argument is itself an anti-semitic theme.

                Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 04:34:39 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  as an abstraction (0+ / 0-)

                  the idea of having one's own nation for one's own ethnic group appears harmless.

                  but nothing exists as an abstraction, so if we're going to talk about the real world and not imagination and feelings, then there's no way anyone can deny what zionism has meant to palestinians and arabs. and let me be clear here because i so strongly disagree with you: "left wing zionism" and "right wing zionism" and every zionism in between prioritizes the rights of jews over non-jews in all of palestine.

                  that is very definition of racism. it is not anti-semitic; in fact, it is anti-arab to deny it.

                  •  And what is denying in (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Paul in Berkeley, issy98

                    practical terms the national aspirations of the Jewish people?

                    You prioritize Arabs and Palestinians over Jews. I actually don't have a problem with that unless you are talking about the U.S. That's ok. For you the national liberation of the Jewish people takes a back seat to the national liberation of the Palestinian people. I actually understand that. But in practical terms that is what you are advocating.

                    Let me ask you, who will run this mythical One State. The majority. Well the majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas in the last election. What level of support do the Western Democratic factions of the Palestinian Polity actually have. Not a whole lot.

                    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                    by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 04:55:25 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  not all jewish people (0+ / 0-)

                      have national aspirations. you're talking about national aspirations for zionists, aren't you?

                      "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                      by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:09:06 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Over 90% of the worlds Jews are Zionists (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mets102, issy98

                        and that is being conservative. So no, I am talking about Jews. A small minority does not dictate the terms of the beliefs of the vast majority.

                        Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:39:19 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  not so sure about that percentage (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Rusty Pipes

                          anymore. recalling beinart's groundbreaking article:


                          The Failure of the American Jewish Establishment

                          The philanthropists wanted to know what Jewish students thought about Israel. Luntz found that they mostly didn’t. "Six times we have brought Jewish youth together as a group to talk about their Jewishness and connection to Israel," he reported. "Six times the topic of Israel did not come up until it was prompted. Six times these Jewish youth used the word ‘they‘ rather than ‘us‘ to describe the situation."

                          like i said before not all jewish people have national aspirations

                          Most of the students, in other words, were liberals, broadly defined. They had imbibed some of the defining values of American Jewish political culture: a belief in open debate, a skepticism about military force, a commitment to human rights. And in their innocence, they did not realize that they were supposed to shed those values when it came to Israel. The only kind of Zionism they found attractive was a Zionism that recognized Palestinians as deserving of dignity and capable of peace, and they were quite willing to condemn an Israeli government that did not share those beliefs. Luntz did not grasp the irony. The only kind of Zionism they found attractive was the kind that the American Jewish establishment has been working against for most of their lives.

                          .....

                          Particularly in the younger generations, fewer and fewer American Jewish liberals are Zionists; fewer and fewer American Jewish Zionists are liberal. One reason is that the leading institutions of American Jewry have refused to foster—indeed, have actively opposed—a Zionism that challenges Israel’s behavior in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and toward its own Arab citizens. For several decades, the Jewish establishment has asked American Jews to check their liberalism at Zionism’s door, and now, to their horror, they are finding that many young Jews have checked their Zionism instead.

                          Morally, American Zionism is in a downward spiral.

                          it needs more than a facelift volley, it needs a change of course.

                          "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                          by zannie on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:40:42 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  zannie those terms are very mis-read (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            thebluecrayon, Mets102

                            I realize you didn't intentionally do that but to quote Beinart like that is way out of context. Yes, the article says that - but, no that is not what it means. I would bet you a million dollars, that those same young Jews would absolutely be in favor of Israel's existence of a Jewish State. I am in favor of it and would fight for it if it was threatened but, I am not going to move there as of now. Israel as I said before is a concept and a State. You simply don't understand that fact and I don't blame you for not understanding it.

                            As to the moral values of American Zionism - there are issues within the Zionist movement. Some of it you see here and a lot of it you don't. But see, despite the conflicts within the Zionist movement there is universal support for the concept of Israel as a Jewish State. The American Jewish community is more liberal towards the Palestinians than their Israeli cousins. Of course, we are not there and we are socialized to America. But don't think that is not support for Zionism.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 08:34:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  not sure what you mean by (0+ / 0-)

                            mis read and out of context. there's only so many ways one can read

                            "For several decades, the Jewish establishment has asked American Jews to check their liberalism at Zionism’s door, and now, to their horror, they are finding that many young Jews have checked their Zionism instead.

                            Morally, American Zionism is in a downward spiral. "

                            but either way, respecting your points, i think reframing the approach to an acceptance of zionism or zionist policies i do agree w/you one could get a more favorable response. ei ("The only kind of Zionism they found attractive was a Zionism that recognized Palestinians"

                            i recall several times (way pre beinart's article) encouraging you to write your own diary on what zionism means to you, or varying ways to perceive it. when i first went on a search for definitions i understood it to be of 2 categories, one spiritual and the other practical or policy.

                            how people self identify varies widely within the same cultures. religious people in general tend to self identify w/their ethnic affiliations first which is not always the case for seculars. racists self identify w/their race more than non racists regardless of ethnicity. i think part of the responses beinhart referenced wrt american jewish youth is a very normal american reaction to zionists principles when compared to our open democracy because the two are not obviously not interchangeable. it's natural for kids who are brought up in our culture to understand self determination isn't limited by the presence of other ethnicities in our midst aquiring their own. after all, we're american.

                            As to the moral values of American Zionism - there are issues within the Zionist movement.

                            right, but i'm still not understanding how you can make the assertion you made upthread, how there are problems in the practical application of zionism but  the racist issue isn't one of them. instead you said  'It is a political issue.'

                            leaving racist issues being political issues aside, (i'm addressing racial discrimination wrt it's legal definition which includes ethnic discrimination) the only example of zionism's (political zionism not spiritual)'practical application', and that's the zionist state. how you can say there's no racist problems w/zionism (at all, in practice) i find astonishing.

                            despite the conflicts within the Zionist movement there is universal support for the concept of Israel as a Jewish State.

                            how could one disagree w/this, of course. we just have a little issue over that 90% figure you mentioned earlier and i don't think i either mis read or took beinarts points out of context. we'll just have to wait and see i suppose.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 12:33:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  one more thing (0+ / 0-)

                            The only kind of Zionism they found attractive was a Zionism that recognized Palestinians

                            within this subgroup of american jewish youth, i don't think this awkward analogy by the hillel leader (video) conflating palestinians w/vampires is going to be very persuasive.

                            "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                            by zannie on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 12:39:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  no actually (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't prioritize the national aspirations of anyone based on their ethnicity or race or religion. I prioritize equality.

                      but if your argument is that by advocating equality, that i'm denying jewish "national liberation", then that really is the fundamental problem with zionism, isn't it? the "success" the national liberation of one group is experienced as racism by another.

                      i just don't see how there's any way around that reality, and i'm not going to pretend that it's not racism to make you or meteor blades or anyone else feel better.

                      •  You don't have to pretend to do anything to (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Mets102, issy98

                        make me happy - You believe what you believe thst's your right, but, it is my belief that the equation of Zionism with racism is an anti-semitic meme and I am not going to pretend it is anything but that no matter who says it.

                        So I guess we are at an impasse. You can't see what I say and I can't see what you say. So now what?

                        Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                        by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:46:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  well no (0+ / 0-)

                          because there are facts and statistics which support my assertion about zionism, not yours.

                          racism is not some abstract thing that people just happily disagree about, it's what is actually happening on the ground in the real world.

                          for anyone looking over even the basic facts of how israel's arab minority is treated, let alone how palestinians in the west bank and gaza are treated, it's really hard to come to any other conclusion, unless one is a denialist.

                          •  Well remi (and anyone else who will answer) (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Mets102, issy98

                            I disagree with you here and I can cite tons of facts to counter yours but neither of us is going to get anywhere doing that. SO.. let me pose this to you:

                            1. How are you going to create a mythical one state solution when 79.5% of the population (and that's just the Jews) don't want to do this? That % is both heavily armed AND well trained. In addition most of the Jews from around the world would help as well. Now that we have Israel, you can't possibly imagine we would let it go. So how are you going to make this happen?
                            1. Given that the Palestinian Polity gave Hamas (a blatently anti-Semitic as well as religious extremist party) the majority of the vote, and that civil society has as much support in the electorate as I do - how are you going to insure freedom for the Jewish population there?
                            1. What will this State look like realistically. The Palestinian Polity is a mess and you are going to hand them a State with a hostile minority who are armed. This is not South Africa with 12% Whites, this is a country that would be over 35% Jewish. Plus after all that is going on you are going to just assume the general populace will be peaceful?

                            Please someone tell me how this works.

                            Please take a shot at this no one seems to

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:03:23 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  to answer (0+ / 0-)

                            or try to answer:

                            1. obviously there have to be major changes. i don't think it's going to happen over night, but neither did things like desegregation and equality in the US. I'm not asking jews to give up israel; i'm saying they should live there as equals with palestinians. that's a pretty big difference.
                            1. i'm not aware that hamas has the support of the majority of palestinians. would like to see those numbers. but you're right, they are a problem and they are anti-semitic. but i think the way to delegitimize them is for israel to put in place policies that respect the human rights of palestinians, that practically change the lives of palestinians so that groups like hamas become irrelevant. the reason hamas can do well isn't because palestinians are anti-semitic, it's because they have been shat upon for decades and mistreated, and their rights denied. i believe that if israel moved toward a real equality with palestinians, hamas would all but disappear.
                            1. realistically, i think a state based on equal rights would have a lot of work to do; but israelis would still probably occupy most positions of power and certainly would be wealthier. south africa remains a segregated place with huge disparities in wealth. i think the general population would be peaceful if there are laws and the state supports those laws, yes.
                •  i don't think Zionism-is-inherently-racist (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  weasel, callmecassandra

                  but thus far operational zionism, the political construct operates in a racist way and as far as i can tell it has since it's inception.

                  wiki

                  Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a nationalist[1] Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, calls for the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland.[2] Since the establishment of the State of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily to support and advocate on behalf of the Jewish state, and its current existence.

                  so it's a political movement and yes, that movement certainly can be non racist, and i'm sure there are many zionist who are not racist. but zionism as it has thus far existed or operated in it's fulfillment, discriminates. it denies citizenship based on ethnicity. the land that it depends on for the asperations of it's fulfillment was acquired thru ethnic cleansing and continues to expand in this fashion.

                  i do not know how it can be separated from the idea behind the 'land of israel' as it applies to continued settlement. and while there are certainly zionists (and i believe many here) who do not aspire to this continued 'settlement' thus far the government of israel which represents zionisms aspirations has always continued to settle the land, which entails cleansing it.

                  so in practical terms i'm not seeing zionism operating functionally other that resulting in a racist outcome. but i do not believe zionism is racism and i do believe jews who want to can live in their homeland and fulfill zionist aspirations in a non discriminatory way. they just haven't yet, functionally.

                  "As Israel treats Jerusalem, so shall the world treat Israel. As Jerusalem goes, so goes Israel." - B. Burston/Ha'aretz

                  by zannie on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:06:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Have they? (4+ / 0-)

                  Those who argue that it's not have made a very good case that the Zionism-is-inherently-racist argument is itself an anti-semitic theme.

                  I haven't seen much in the way of an argument around here, I see mostly bald assertions.

                  Anyway, the concept that Zionism is racism must have at least two separate parts, the practical and the theoretical.  This is similar to a legal challenge on as-applied (practical) or facial (theoretical grounds).

                  It is hard to argue that Zionism as practiced is not racism.  The Israeli state, presumably the best arbiter of what Zionism means in practice, is brutally racist against Arab Palestinians, and very racist (though far less brutally) against Arabs inside Israel.  Zionism in practice has been very racist for arguably its whole existence in power.

                  As for the theoretical challenge, must Zionism always be racist?  That is obviously harder to test, since we don't have facts to go on, but ideas.  I would not think it must always be racist.  I can certainly imagine a conception of Zionism that supports equal rights for all (though on the other hand, folks might say that my version of Zionism is not Zionism at all).  So I would disagree that Zionism must be racism.

                  However, this does not mean that those making the statement are anti-semitic in any way, merely that I disagree with such a statement if it is made in the absolute and theoretical sense.

                  Of course, when someone says Zionism is racism, we don't know how they mean it.  Do they mean theoretically or practically?  No one ever bothers to find out, because of course they don't want to know.  They wish to interpret it as broadly as possible.  

                  As for the folks petitioning you with the list of things other people cannot say, I suppose it is your right to talk of such petitions as you choose.  But I don't see where any case has been made that such a petition is valid in any sense, as opposed one more sadly common attempt to force particular words (and thereby particular acceptable views) down other people's throats.

                  "How did you go bankrupt?" "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." - Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises.

                  by weasel on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:45:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The UN retracted (0+ / 0-)

                    "Zionism is Racism" after heavy arm twisting by John Bolton.  They would have done better to amend it to "Zionism institutionalized is Institutionalized Racism."  GOI's treatment of Palestinian citizens of Israel uses a whole system of discriminatory laws to consign them to second-class citizenship based on their ethnicity.  Even if individual Jewish Israelis want to treat their fellow citizens as equals, a matrix of racist laws prevents real equality.

                    "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

                    by Rusty Pipes on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 07:03:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You would do well... (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      livosh1, JNEREBEL, arielle, thebluecrayon

                      to learn some history.  Additionally, you should take the time to learn that the resolution declaring Zionism racism is the only resolution in UN history to be revoked (first paragraph, last sentence).  Lastly, I would suggest you read this.

                      Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                      by Mets102 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 07:38:08 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  wikipedia (0+ / 0-)

                        is a battleground of narratives on any topic touching Israel or Zionism and should not be relied upon as a primary source.  There have been a variety of schools of Zionist thought, some of which,like cultural Zionism, are not necessarily inherently racist.   However, the only instance in which Zionism has been institutionalized, in the State of Israel, has created a system of institutionalized racism.  I do not see that statement to contradict Tim's comment.

                        "Trolling is a sad reality of internet life...Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time"

                        by Rusty Pipes on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 04:57:01 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Since... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          JNEREBEL, volleyboy1

                          Zionism is the support for a Jewish State existing on at least some portion of the historic Land of Israel, to say:

                          Zionism institutionalized is Institutionalized Racism

                          is functionally no different than stating Zionism is racism.

                          Aside from your broad-brush criticism, can you provide any evidence to prove that what I said was factually incorrect?

                          Please be advised: The contents of this comment are merely my opinion.

                          by Mets102 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 05:20:49 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  See below for my rebuttal (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JNEREBEL, Mets102

                            to weasel's argument. Zionism is not racist either in ideological form or practical. It does not depend on a concept of "genetic superiority" to create a State. There for it is not racist. Repressive in it's treatment of the Palestinians, ok, I can buy that. Is that based on perceived racial superiority - Nope.

                            Sorry Rusty, better luck next time.. we do have some lovely door prizes on the way out. Thanks.

                            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                            by volleyboy1 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 at 06:54:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes we have (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, JNEREBEL, Mets102

                    Mets' argument is flawless - follow that. However, I and others reject your framing. Has Zionism been racist in incepetion, I would argue that it has not.

                    First let's define racism: Wikipedia defines racism as...:

                    Racism is the belief that the genetic factors which constitute race are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race(vb1 emphasis).[1] Racism's effects are called "racial discrimination." In the case of institutional racism, certain racial groups may be denied rights or benefits, or receive preferential treatment

                    Now, you have conceeded that Zionism is not racist as an ideology. I would say though that Zionism in practice does not pass this defination as well.

                    It is a fact that the Israeli political system favors it's Jewish population over it's Arab population but is that because the founders of Israel felt Arabs were a "lesser" race? Has that held true over political generations? I think the answer is a resounding "NO". Of course you can dig up out of context quotes and commentary seemingly pointing to racism, but is the concept of Jewish superiority a predominant factor in Israeli political leadership?

                    Again the answer has to be "NO". Political considerations, historical considerations led successive Israeli governments to repressive measures but that was not based on race. Sure the occasional racist did become part of the system but does that racist define the whole?

                    Is treatment of the the Arab population in the territories or inside the Green line fair - absolutely not. But is it based on a political system steeped in "genetic factors which constitute race are a primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race"? Again the answer has to be "NO"

                    Rather, the Israeli system is based on historical mis-treatment of the Jews from years past, in a land, surrounded by a population that does not want them there. For the leaders of Israel (whether we agree with it or not), have had a focus on maintaining the Jewish people as a people in the face of many existential threats. But this effort is not due to a concept of genetic superiority. I don't even believe it is based on a belief in spiritual superiority (though some in the extremes go against that). I believe it is purely in an effort to keep a Jewish homeland for our people in the world and for the first time in thousands of years.

                    You can argue and I think effectively that Israel has acted in a repressive manner towards it's minority population but racist... no I don't feel that you can make that case.

                    But I know you will try ;-)

                    Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

                    by volleyboy1 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 at 09:13:38 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  Even the UN backtracked on that piece of (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Paul in Berkeley, MBNYC, volleyboy1

              crap concept years ago but not this "progressive," site.

          •  Here you go MB (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MBNYC, Mets102

            http://www.dailykos.com/...

            This comment by a regular is tolerated and encouraged. And you wonder why idiots who defend Osama (who got uprated two comments later by another I.P. regular) come to this site.

            Sorry but many of us see this as a big old welcome sign.

            Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

            by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 02:52:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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