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View Diary: FABULOUS YOM KIPPUR FRY'DAZE - (I/P Open Thread) (196 comments)

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  •  There is no way I could be expected to (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    RedPencil, volleyboy1

    educate someone like you when you make such a lame,debunked ridiculous allegation, like zionism is racism.

    Have a look at this although I'm skeptical it will help an ideological dinosaur like you.

    Also...denying Jews the right to a sovereign state of their own (the point of Zionism) is generally accepted as antisemitism worldwide so be careful.

    •  i knew it (0+ / 0-)

      wouldn't be long before the anti-semitism charge would appear.

      my problem is with jews having a sovereign state at all. my problem is a movement, and this would be any religio-ethnic movement, that wants to establish its exclusive sovereignty where another society already exists.

      and before you ask me if i have a problem with the US, i'll tell you absolutely i do.

      I just glanced at the link you posted, full of half truths and lies and attempts to diminish the racism that zionism has inflicted on Arabs. shameful we have defenders of racism here.

      equally, i would say to meteor blades, why are people here allowed to deny that zionism is racism?

      if this is a progressive site, we should be supporting victims of racist ideologies.

      •  correction (0+ / 0-)

        my problem is not with jews having a sovereign state.

      •  As I said "sigh." n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1
      •  Zionism is racism... (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        weasel, zannie, Eiron, Terra Mystica, remi

        is false as various strains Zionism do exist. I've made the mistake of carelessly framing the argument in this way at one time. (But, imo, it's not antisemitic to say "Zionism is racism". It's simply inaccurate is all.)

        Review Gideon Levy's thoughts on the issue:

        Would you accept the label ‘anti-Zionist’ to characterise your views?

        It depends what is ‘Zionism’. Because Zionism is a very fluid concept – who can define what is Zionism? If Zionism means the right of the Jews to have a state, I am a Zionist. If Zionism means occupation, I’m an anti-Zionist. So I never know how to answer this question. If Zionism means to have a Jewish state at the expense of being a democratic state, then I am anti-Zionist, because I truly believe those two definitions are contradictory – ‘Jewish’ and ‘democratic’. For me, Israel should be a democratic state.

        I’ve just finished reading Yitzhak Laor’s ‘Myths of Liberal Zionism’, which is obviously very critical of the ‘Zionist Left’. What do you think of the politics of people like David Grossman, Amos Oz, A.B. Yehoshua and Meretz? Do they offer a sufficiently radical critique of Israeli policy, and if not, why is their critique so compromised?

        First of all, I had Oz and Yehoshua at my home for dinner a few weeks ago, so I have to be very cautious in what I say, but I am very critical about this kind of thinking. You can add [Israeli President] Shimon Peres and Labor to this. This is the typical Israeli hypocrisy, and I in many ways appreciate [Israel’s far-right Foreign Minister Avigdor] Lieberman more than Shimon Peres, because with Lieberman, at least, what you see is what you get. It’s very clear what he stands for. With people like Shimon Peres or Meretz – and I don’t say they are identical – or Oz and Yehoshua and Grossman, they want to eat the cake and leave it complete, as we say in Hebrew. This doesn’t work.

        I think they lack courage, some of them. Others, like Shimon Peres, are hypocrites who talk about peace and do the opposite. I think that Oz and Yehoshua and Grossman, who I know very well personally, mean well. But in many ways they are still chained in the Zionistic ideology. They haven’t released themselves from the old Zionistic ideology, which basically hasn’t changed since ’48 – namely, that the Jews have the right to this land, almost the exclusive right. They are trying to find their way to be Zionistic, and to be for peace, and to be for justice. The problem is that Zionism in its present meaning, in its common meaning, is contradictory to human rights, to equality, to democracy, and they don’t recognise it. It’s too hard for them to recognise it, to realise it. And therefore their position is an impossible position, because they want everything: they want Zionism, they want democracy, they want a Jewish state, but they want also rights for the Palestinians... it’s very nice to want everything, but you have to make your choice and they are not courageous enough to make the choice.

        Now I agree with you that Zionism is nothing more than nationalist movement, fair game for criticism and condemnation if warranted. No moral, legal or ethical obligation to support it exists.

        But you should be mindful of those who don't perceive Zionism in the way that Israel has practiced it for some sixty years - as a state policy which inevitably created a discriminatory and racist system of rule.

        Hell, I've even heard that Zionism is synonymous with Jewish self-determination. It's a rare defining, but ah well...

        The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

        by callmecassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:16:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ok (3+ / 0-)

          well, I'm not opposed to jews having a state at all. but I agree with Levy that it should be based on equality with Palestinians, all Palestinians, even refugees.

          but i'm always told here that by supporting that kind of full equality, I am "denying jewish self-determination". so my brain then says, how is that so? does jewish self-determination most zionists mean that there can't be full equality with palestinians?

          then i realize it's a numbers game. it all rests on jews being a majority, right? so full equality with palestinians can't be endorsed by (most) zionists because it would mean jews would become a minority? is that right? if that's so, then again, i'm not sure why that's the fault of palestinians. it seems to me that it's the fault of zionism as it is understood and applied by a majority of zionists.

          so for levy, i wonder, does he mean he believes in the rights of jews to have a state whether or not they are a majority or a minority? that is, just a homeland? i agree fully with that.

          •  Well... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie, Terra Mystica, remi

            but i'm always told here that by supporting that kind of full equality, I am "denying jewish self-determination".

            ...they're wrong, of course.

            First off, Jewish self-determination has limitations ending where another people's self-determination begins. Some folks don't seem to get this and you'll run into a few of them here.

            I try to break from the conversation when it gets to the "I am denying jewish self-determination" which usually arises when the person is asked to confront certain contradictions, inconsistencies and hypocrisies.

            if that's so, then again, i'm not sure why that's the fault of palestinians.

            Palestinians are not wrong for rejecting Zionism. Any people found in their position would reject Zionism as practiced by Israel. And many Palestinian citizens of Israel work tirelessly (alongside Jewish citizens) to help Israel become a liberal, democratic nation that recognizes all of its citizens as equals - which it most certainly does not do at the moment.

            As for Levy, I think he believes in and wants a democratic state more than a Jewish one. So, I would assume that the demographic numbers wouldn't matter to him.

            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

            by callmecassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:28:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Right (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102

          Just like Palestinian nationalism, as practiced by groups like Hamas, is racist -- it espouses the notion that the land is somehow Palestinian, and Jews, because they are not Palestinian, have no rights there.

          So Zionism is only as racist as Palestinian nationalism is racist.

          In loving memory: Sophie, June 1, 1993-January 17, 2005. My huckleberry friend.

          by Paul in Berkeley on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 09:38:29 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Dude? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zannie

            So Zionism is only as racist as Palestinian nationalism is racist.

            Is this for your benefit or mine?

            The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

            by callmecassandra on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 10:35:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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