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View Diary: FABULOUS YOM KIPPUR FRY'DAZE - (I/P Open Thread) (196 comments)

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  •  no actually (0+ / 0-)

    I don't prioritize the national aspirations of anyone based on their ethnicity or race or religion. I prioritize equality.

    but if your argument is that by advocating equality, that i'm denying jewish "national liberation", then that really is the fundamental problem with zionism, isn't it? the "success" the national liberation of one group is experienced as racism by another.

    i just don't see how there's any way around that reality, and i'm not going to pretend that it's not racism to make you or meteor blades or anyone else feel better.

    •  You don't have to pretend to do anything to (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mets102, issy98

      make me happy - You believe what you believe thst's your right, but, it is my belief that the equation of Zionism with racism is an anti-semitic meme and I am not going to pretend it is anything but that no matter who says it.

      So I guess we are at an impasse. You can't see what I say and I can't see what you say. So now what?

      Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

      by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 05:46:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  well no (0+ / 0-)

        because there are facts and statistics which support my assertion about zionism, not yours.

        racism is not some abstract thing that people just happily disagree about, it's what is actually happening on the ground in the real world.

        for anyone looking over even the basic facts of how israel's arab minority is treated, let alone how palestinians in the west bank and gaza are treated, it's really hard to come to any other conclusion, unless one is a denialist.

        •  Well remi (and anyone else who will answer) (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mets102, issy98

          I disagree with you here and I can cite tons of facts to counter yours but neither of us is going to get anywhere doing that. SO.. let me pose this to you:

          1. How are you going to create a mythical one state solution when 79.5% of the population (and that's just the Jews) don't want to do this? That % is both heavily armed AND well trained. In addition most of the Jews from around the world would help as well. Now that we have Israel, you can't possibly imagine we would let it go. So how are you going to make this happen?
          1. Given that the Palestinian Polity gave Hamas (a blatently anti-Semitic as well as religious extremist party) the majority of the vote, and that civil society has as much support in the electorate as I do - how are you going to insure freedom for the Jewish population there?
          1. What will this State look like realistically. The Palestinian Polity is a mess and you are going to hand them a State with a hostile minority who are armed. This is not South Africa with 12% Whites, this is a country that would be over 35% Jewish. Plus after all that is going on you are going to just assume the general populace will be peaceful?

          Please someone tell me how this works.

          Please take a shot at this no one seems to

          Please Note: The contents of this comment are only my opinion

          by volleyboy1 on Fri Sep 17, 2010 at 06:03:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  to answer (0+ / 0-)

            or try to answer:

            1. obviously there have to be major changes. i don't think it's going to happen over night, but neither did things like desegregation and equality in the US. I'm not asking jews to give up israel; i'm saying they should live there as equals with palestinians. that's a pretty big difference.
            1. i'm not aware that hamas has the support of the majority of palestinians. would like to see those numbers. but you're right, they are a problem and they are anti-semitic. but i think the way to delegitimize them is for israel to put in place policies that respect the human rights of palestinians, that practically change the lives of palestinians so that groups like hamas become irrelevant. the reason hamas can do well isn't because palestinians are anti-semitic, it's because they have been shat upon for decades and mistreated, and their rights denied. i believe that if israel moved toward a real equality with palestinians, hamas would all but disappear.
            1. realistically, i think a state based on equal rights would have a lot of work to do; but israelis would still probably occupy most positions of power and certainly would be wealthier. south africa remains a segregated place with huge disparities in wealth. i think the general population would be peaceful if there are laws and the state supports those laws, yes.

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