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View Diary: EcoAdvocates: A Declaration of Interdependence (65 comments)

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  •  I saw great news today (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    boatsie, ridemybike

    that scientifically literate folks are not controlled by the fears that some are trying to foist:

    In Science We Trust: Poll Results on How You Feel about Science

    And 87% of them don't have unreasonable fears about GMOs. That's good news.

    Maybe some of them will understand that the GMO salmon can reduce food miles, reduce inputs and resources required to grow them, and help to preserve natural populations.

    Or they could believe fear-mongers. Whatever.

    "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

    by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 05:15:02 PM PDT

    •  I'm not too well versed on the science (8+ / 0-)

      but I do have to say, I'm in favor of labeling GMO, so people at least know what they're eating. Also, I'm from Germany, and over there the poll would probably be flipped to 87% who have concerns about GMO. I think reasonable people can disagree on the issue.

      Safari mzuri Ahsante sana :: Journey beautiful Thank you very much!

      by citisven on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 05:19:51 PM PDT

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      •  No (0+ / 0-)

        the corresponding figure for Europe was 74% of these  people (who are science literate) were comfortable with GMOs. It's right there in the same panel.  

        That's what gives me hope.

        "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

        by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 05:30:37 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  well (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          boatsie

          if you interpret "somewhat comfortable" as "comfortable", but especially if you only get 3 choices in a poll I don't think it's fair to put all 48% who answer "somewhat comfortable with GMO" into the unequivocal "Yes" column. For example, I would probably have answered "somewhat comfortable" but I certainly have a lot of concern about GMO. So I just don't agree that you can interpret the poll as saying that 74% of Europeans are comfortable with GMO. My experience on the ground just does not support that either.

          Also, it would be great to hear what you thought about the other 90% of the diary.

          Safari mzuri Ahsante sana :: Journey beautiful Thank you very much!

          by citisven on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 05:44:32 PM PDT

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          •  Oh, I'm sorry (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            citisven

            I didn't know comments were required to address all points in the body. Have you asked everyone else for all points too?

            But I think resilience includes multiple strategies for stuff like food. And having locally produced fish would be a very nice redundancy.

            Community is crucial to our survival. That's why I work to raise scientific literacy and public health in my community.

            And I hope that climate activism uses science-based solutions in the form of many silver bbs. Personally I can't participate in any 10.10.10 activities because we have a family wedding that day. But I'd donate my 100 mpg scooter if you want to ride it!

            "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

            by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:06:45 PM PDT

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            •  not required at all (0+ / 0-)

              but thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. I do think locally produced fish is going to be really important. I'm working with an African American community in West Oakland who is building an aquaponic system based on Will Allen's Growing Power program. I think this is one great way to get communities involved directly in providing food and to keep the oceans from being overfished.

              I agree that science is important as a foundation, so thanks for doing the work you do. My work is in the creative field, which I think is also going to be very important since we really need to re-imagine how we want the world we live in to look like.

              Have fun at the wedding, and thanks for the scooter offer, I'll pass for now -- my bike and legs are getting me everywhere I need to go -- but might take you up on it in the future ;-)

              Safari mzuri Ahsante sana :: Journey beautiful Thank you very much!

              by citisven on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:25:41 PM PDT

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              •  That's what I can't quite grok-- (0+ / 0-)

                people want to have some urban farming, and reduce demands on the wild populations. But they are so resistant to these fish at the same time.

                If they grow faster, they require less resourcing to grow them--you only have to tank and maintain them for half the time. Anyone who could do math on that ought to understand the environmental benefit.  

                It's like being opposed to solar panels because they use chemicals. I know there are some people who are opposed to them on that basis. But if you look at all the positives, panels win.

                "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

                by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:32:51 PM PDT

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                •  I think it's a valid point (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm just wondering whether we really need the GE fish if they can be farm-raised relatively easy without it. I certainly understand the issue of scale and speed, but perhaps if we have more of the aquaponic systems in more communities we wouldn't need the "superfish." I guess some of my concern is that the whole idea of speeding up our food growing process runs counter to what I believe is a need for humans to slow our pace and get reconnected with the basics. You know, we've made it to over 6 billion humans without the GE fish, why charge it up any more. I may be wrong, but certainly a complex issue that I think goes beyond just science. And I totally appreciate your perspective, and I'm sure it'll continue to be discussed among intelligent people on all sides of the issue. I'm just not that excited about it, that's all.

                  Safari mzuri Ahsante sana :: Journey beautiful Thank you very much!

                  by citisven on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:50:20 PM PDT

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                  •  Maybe you are wondering for your situation (0+ / 0-)

                    but do you feel qualified to withhold this from others who want it?

                    There are plenty of examples in the wild of variations that grow faster or more muscular than other related species. For example, in grad school I studied double-muscle cattle as part of my project. Naturally occurring effect on musculature.

                    "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

                    by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 07:11:28 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  well, I could turn that around (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      RosyFinch

                      and ask you, do you feel qualified to force this on others who don't want it?

                      I think the least that could be done is to put a label on it that says clearly what it is and where it came from. Then everybody can make their own decision whether they'd like to eat it or not. Can we agree on that?

                      Safari mzuri Ahsante sana :: Journey beautiful Thank you very much!

                      by citisven on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 09:02:09 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  one time i jumped into 1 of eddie c's diaries to (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Eddie C, citisven

              beg or a rec for one of our series. I scanned through the pictures and of course was so impressed that I wrote the standard comment about what talent, how the streets just almost breahted, etc. It was so good that i just of course would never befoul it with a request for a rec. BUT  it turns out to be one of Eddie's most brilliant, well researched (he'd been working on it for EVER diaries on photography in NY.

              And he responded graciously with thanks but noted that he was hoping with this diary to draw more commenary on what he had unearthed and on the history and the photographers etc.

              God, was I embarassed.

              What did you do when you knew? boatsie

              by boatsie on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 08:45:24 PM PDT

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              •  well, it was a highlighted segment (0+ / 0-)

                of the diary like any of the others. And I still don't see everyone else required to speak to all the other pieces.

                I've never seen the requirement that if you are going to comment on one item you have to comment on all of them. But I'll know that for the future!

                "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

                by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 08:48:38 PM PDT

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                •  it's all good (0+ / 0-)

                  we can talk about that one segment all night if you'd like to. Obviously that is your niche and area of interest. Nobody is requiring you to do otherwise, so please stop saying we're requiring you to do anything. But since I did put in the most time in the part that is my original thought and that is supposed to be the gist of the diary, you can't fault me for being more interested in talking about interdependence and community.

                  Safari mzuri Ahsante sana :: Journey beautiful Thank you very much!

                  by citisven on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 08:59:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  absolutely nobody is expecting you or anyone (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  citisven

                  to comment on every aspect of a min=zine. that would be entirely too much ... my god, we have enough trouble at it is getting people to read and post a comment at all. You hung out, carried on some conversation. Fabulous. Thanks.

                  What did you do when you knew? boatsie

                  by boatsie on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 09:03:53 PM PDT

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    •  I think this is unfair. (7+ / 0-)

      I am a scientist. and I disagree with your characterization of fear mongering. The jury is not out on GMO impacts to genetic diversity by any stretch of the imagination. We could as easily accuse you of meme-mongering, by cherry picking expected benefits and shadowing any possible unfortunate impacts.

      Present the whole story when you criticize, please. It's clear that you think the negative impacts are negligible. There are many scientists who at not fear mongering that are not convinced. I am one of those.

      Please consider donating to HEAL Africa.

      by rb137 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 05:34:00 PM PDT

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      •  Fear mongering is precisely what this is, (0+ / 0-)

        contrary to the data presented to the FDA and in the decade that these fish have been studied. Have you looked at it? Have you been in a field that has been looking at the data on these fish in the last decade?

        I hope you are asking for the whole story from your other sources. Because I know for a fact you aren't getting it from Jill.

        "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

        by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:09:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Fear not. (4+ / 0-)

          I do not base my opinions on Jill's blog.

          My opinion is that the answer is not clear, and the corporate conclusions are premature.

          Please consider donating to HEAL Africa.

          by rb137 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:50:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What about the non-corporate science? (0+ / 0-)

            I love the story of the Cuban tilapia that they've had for over a decade. And everyone's all jazzed about Cuban sustainability....?

            If anyone tried to tell me Cuba was a tool of Monsanto I'd laugh for days :)

            "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

            by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:53:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Cuba has it's own problems with bias. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Otteray Scribe, JayinPortland

              They also have their ends. And as to a decade -- that is a pretty short stretch on an evolutionary time scale.

              Please consider donating to HEAL Africa.

              by rb137 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 07:02:14 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, we're about to face some rapid change (0+ / 0-)

                from climate issues. Which technologies do you consider off-the-table for responding to that?

                "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

                by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 07:05:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Please leave out the red herrings. (6+ / 0-)

                  One paper does not equal "everybody" or a scientific consensus. And if you read many scientific journals, you know that "published" doens't equal "correct".

                  But this question about climate change is a digression. The subject now whether or not I would take something off the table re climate change? Have I taken anything off the table in the current discussion? No. I said that I think the corporate judgements are premature.

                  My original objection was to the assertion that caution about GMOs was stupid, and that arguing against their use was fear mongering. You might be comfortable with using GMOs (and many scientists are) -- but it isn't fair to ridicule people who oppose their use out of hand. My personal opinion is that they have reasonable and valid concerns.  

                  Please consider donating to HEAL Africa.

                  by rb137 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 07:57:23 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ah, the undermining of peer review (0+ / 0-)

                    that's an unfortunate strategy. I hate to see people try that, especially if they are hoping to use science to support their perspective. As Orac has said in It's that time again: "Broken" peer review

                    peer review is the worst way to weed out bad science and promote good science, except for all the others that have been tried.

                    And I don't see this as a digression at all. Efficient and appropriate use of resources for food is foundational for both climate change and peak oil realities. I'm sorry you don't see the linkage.

                    There is caution about GMOs. Are all plants and animal breeds undergoing this review? No. And there have been toxic heirloom potatoes and celery. But there is a type of activist that uses fear instead of facts to undermine the process--we see this in vaccines most clearly. The strategy is the same. Although there are legitimate issues and regulatory review, to pretend that they haven't aren't evaluated and raised is false.

                    "It's not like she's marrying out of her species or anything," Ms. Lynch said.

                    by mem from somerville on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 08:36:07 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I didn't undermine peer review. (4+ / 0-)

                      Peer review is absolutely necessary -- but it doesn't mean that every academic paper is absolutely correct. You've followed arguments in the literature when two groups have different results or different interpretations of results, yes? It is a necessary and real part of science.

                      I strenuously object to your accusing me of "trying" a trick. Peer reviewed literature is just that -- literature that is reviewed according to a standard for a particular journal. Every journal (and discipline) has its biases because of the field of reviewers available.

                      You know this.

                      Please consider donating to HEAL Africa.

                      by rb137 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 10:24:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  About the digression... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JanF, Otteray Scribe, JayinPortland

                      I forgot to address that. The reason I interpret it as a digression is that you went straight to, "Which technologies do you consider off-the-table for responding to that?" It is a digression in the following ways:

                      It first embeds the assumption that GMOs are a tool for responding to world hunger. Nobody has demonstrated that using GMOs addresses the root causes of world hunger -- which are largely political and a matter of distribution. In fact, using proprietary methods to produce food might well exacerbate the problem. But that discussion isn't scientific.

                      Second, you're implying that I'm arbitrarily taking technologies off the table for solving large problems -- you're putting words into my mouth, and you're creating a distraction by changing the subject of conversation.

                      And now you're telling me that I can't make connectioins between climate change, global energy, and food. Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about me? (Actually, that is a rhetorical question.)

                      Please consider donating to HEAL Africa.

                      by rb137 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 10:38:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

      •  great topic for hunger blogathon this weekend (5+ / 0-)

        as the first diarist on saturday, would you be interested in setting out the issues here. Your professional scientific background would make this an  extremely beneficial and informative diary for our community.

        Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Mohandas K. Gandhi

        by Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 06:13:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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