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View Diary: American Taliban shares same goals with Islamic jihadists (160 comments)

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  •  So difference is the SENTENCE for gays? (7+ / 0-)

    Ross Douthat may oppose same-sex marriage, but he's not an advocate of publicly executing gays and lesbians.

    Well, there's plenty of conservatives who still want homosexuality made illegal, and while it's nice that they only want jail terms and not execution, the goal is the same: force people to stop being homosexual or at least having homosex in their own homes.  THat the conservatives here think six months in the county lockup would do it and the taliban thinks that death is the only way seems more like a difference in degree than in goals.

    Some feel more comfortable with the certainty that comes from losing power and letting republicans stab them in the front. It's a failure of nerve.

    by Inland on Tue Sep 21, 2010 at 06:07:02 PM PDT

    •  They want to execute them in private. (6+ / 0-)

      They don't want to get caught.

      That's all.

    •  Come on... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sharon Wraight, Jon Says, hmi

      I hate being told who I can and can't marry.  But it is in no way, shape, or form the same as someone wanting to kill me for who I want to marry.  Have we truly lost the capacity to distinguish between the two?  It's absurd to think that everyone who is against same-sex marriage secretly wants to kill all gays.  Does someone who wants to boycott Israel secretly want to kill all Jews (or even all Israelis)?  Does everyone who want to restrict Christian religious expression secretly want to kill all Christians?  Is the difference merely one of "sentence"?  Some perspective here, please.  We're right on the issue.  It weakens our position when we paint everyone who disagrees with us on fundamental issues as equivalent to the Taliban and the KKK.

      And Kos - that picture you put up is 117 years old.  Not for nothing, but there are lynchings about 60 years more recent that you could have used.  Or you could have used Shepherd.  Just an odd choice of image...plenty of more recent examples out there.

      •  And of course... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sharon Wraight, Jon Says

        ...this is not to say that SOME of them don't secretly wish that.  Some do.  Just like there are some anti-Israel folks who are anti-Semites and who do want to kill all Jews.  But painting with the broadest possible brush isn't going to convince anyone unless they agree with you already.  So I don't see how this is a constructive approach if the point is to expand the number of people who understand the dangers represented by teabaggers and other conservative Republicans.

      •  but as I said above , there is a group who will (6+ / 0-)

        hide their head in the sand while someone commits a hate crime against gays and they are the enablers. They think hate crimes are not hate crimes and that discrimination happens and says Oh well.

        •  as when enough are enablers and do not protest (0+ / 0-)

          discrimination and gay bashing..they truly enable those who do.

        •  I agree (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sharon Wraight

          That actually goes to the point I was making.  My issue is simply with the notion that there are only three possible categories of people:

          1. Those who agree with us
          1. Those who secretly want us to die
          1. Those who openly want us to die

          Telling someone "agree with us or else be painted as a Klan member" is not an effective tactic of persuasion.  It's also, you know, not a realistic depiction of what many people who are opposed to gay marriage actually think.

      •  Another person who (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Spoc42, Matt Z, jan4insight

        misses the entire argument.  The argument is not that they wish to kill us, but that like the Taliban they have absolutely no interest in liberty and wish to impose narrow religious law on the rest of us.

      •  Some American Christians (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        G2geek, wsexson, Matt Z, QuestionAuthority

        want to stone you to death.

        Other American Christians have counseled Uganda on how best to deal with their gay problem.

      •  You're in the hospital desperately ill.... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Spoc42, Matt Z, jan4insight

        ..... You might die soon.  And there's a bigot at the gate keeping the one you love with all your heart, from being able to visit you and hold your hand.

        That bigot may not be holding a carving knife to your neck, but forcing you to face death without your partner at your side is pretty damn close.

        •  No. No, it is not "pretty damn close" (0+ / 0-)

          First off, the most recent poll I've seen showed that 86% of the country thinks that gays should have hospital visitation rights (  So we're talking about a very small proportion of the country who holds the view you describe.  And the number will keep getting smaller...unless we make the mistake of painting everyone who disagrees with us on any gay rights issue as a bigot.  That tactic generally doesn't sit well with people who don't already agree with you.

          Second, even for the 14% of people who oppose hospital visitation rights, there is a HUGE difference both ethically and practically between being holding callous and bigoted views and being a would-be MURDERER.  And if you think that there isn't, then you really, truly have lost all sense of perspective.

          •  dude, Taoism 101. (0+ / 0-)

            Not-doing is doing.

            "Letting" is "making."

            "Letting" someone die without their loved ones by their side, is equivalent to "making" them die without their loved ones by their side.  

            The moral culpability is the same whether the thing they are dying from is a bullet you shot them with, or an illness, an accident, or whatever.  The shooting or stabbing is an additional moral culpability, but after that point, the scenario is the same.  

            Good to hear it's only 14%, but that's 14% too many.  

            And BTW, those DOMA laws in various states, usually specify "or the rights and benefits of marriage," which include hospital visitation in hospitals where the rules for access to the ICU are "spouses, parents, and children."  

      •  Obama is being politically lynched (0+ / 0-)

        Wikipedia has some background on the story of the lynching photo. (The New York Times article from 1893 asserts his guilt.)

        But more importantly...

        Philip Dray's 2002 book, At the hands of persons unknown: the lynching of Black America, sheds light on the current extremism in US politics (including Glen Beck's disgraceful usurpation of MLK's "I Have a Dream" date and venue). Dray writes:

        "[there is an ] anthropological basis for viewing lynching as a form of tribal sacrifice... the kind of painful spasm a community 'needed' in order to regain a sense of normalcy, and many lynchings did occur in a climate of acute preexisting racial tensions -- [including] competition for jobs, an escalating exchange of insults, or the spread of damaging rumors. Sociologist Orlando Patterson has explained the obsessive, ritualized killing of black males in the 1890s by suggesting that the South's dominant fundamentalist Christianity, combined with its Lost Cause ideology to create a belief system in which the black man was perceived as an enemy within Southern society... The black man of the 1890s, particularly one who was sexually, physically, or intellectually threatening, became a logical sacrificial scapegoat in a region mournful of its past and anxious about its future. ... Patterson writes, ... 'every participant in these heinous rituals of human sacrifice must have felt the deepest and most gratifying sense of expiation and atonement.' ... Christianity was unique among the world's religions in promulgating the idea that Negroes--the children of Ham--were beings of darkness..."

        We're all aware of the general background of US racism. But Dray's book helps put it in historical context, and provides a much richer, deeper insight into the tribal passions we are witnessing today.  

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