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View Diary: Action (Updated): Let's Vote Out GOP Senators Who Voted No on DADT Repeal and the DREAM Act (257 comments)

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  •  Who is "they"? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    wabird, banach tarski paradox

    Learn more about second-class U.S. citizenship at http://www.equalitymatters.org/

    by Larry Bailey on Tue Sep 21, 2010 at 03:44:22 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I thought the same thing. (2+ / 0-)

      I guess 'they' is anyone who has to ask.

      Fuck it, I guess I'm a Libertarian now. Is that better or worse than a Libtard or Leftist? I know that Libertarians don't give two shits about creating or enforcing laws that discriminate against people. This is like the abortion issue on the right: All talk and no action because neither party actually cares. They just want your vote.

      I'm pretty much writing in my candidates this year. I've been brainwashed by this site to pencil in Nader, Ponies and BP. Maybe Palin, also. Too.

      This is my stop, I'm getting off. Thanks for the ride Democrats. Good luck in November.

    •  "they" who bring absolutist negativity... (0+ / 0-)

      around their own obsessive pet issue, or laundry list, of "reasons" that the Democrats are utterly non-viable, and thus doomed.

      Of course, some of them are also Chamber of Commerce, etc. sock puppets, Greens, and the more dogmatic, doctrinaire rhetorical "leftists"...

      You know, those whose real agenda, usually unstated, in order to avoid being 86'd from the venue, is really to advocate electoral boycott or vote splitting.

      Unfortunately, too many of our gay brothers and sisters are among such elements (perhaps often Libertarians, or Log Cabin Republicans, whom the "real" Republicans won't have, and would prefer to kill) screaming hysterically that they are not going to vote, unless they get their freakin' (whatever it is), RIGHT NOW (petulant foot stomp).

      Fortunately, they (including gays, anti-war, environmentalists, or whatever) are actually mostly not such duplicitous fools, despite the interlopers' desire to usurp the mantle of representation for those viewpoints, by spamming us with such prolific unprincipled subjective opportunist trollish harassment.

      "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

      by Radical def on Tue Sep 21, 2010 at 05:25:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, at least you didn't call 'em flamers. (0+ / 0-)

        Though you took it nicely to "petulant foot stompers". Look, I don't know if you're gay or what, but I do know you do not have a clue about the importance of gay rights to those of us most affected by the denial of those rights. We are not talking about "absolutist negativity around an obsessive pet issue" or anybody "usurping" "mantles of representation" or "spamming us with such prolific subjective opportunist trollish" whatever; we're talking about living one life and either living it in a state of equal freedom and opportunity -- or not.

        Learn more about second-class U.S. citizenship at http://www.equalitymatters.org/

        by Larry Bailey on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 04:24:29 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not gay, and it is true... (0+ / 0-)

          ...that I do not personally consider gay rights to be the absolute more important and urgent issue confronting us as a nation.

          You can HR me for that, and insinuate that I might be a freakin' homophobe for it, but you will be wrong.

          Personally, I tend to ultimately be more concerned about the fact that the ice caps are melting faster and faster, which could kill us ALL, regardless of sexual orientation, race, nationality, color, religion, or whatever.

          I WOULD put gay rights in the top five, say,  within a more general category of civil rights/human rights, which I do consider extremely important and urgent issues.  I do not think gay rights are "more" or "less" important than those of women, people of color, or anyone else...but I do think motion on gay rights is especially long overdue, and thus extremely important and somewhat more urgent..and I'm proud to see some fairly significant motion, as inadequate as it may be, for the first time...Ever, and I am confident that with a few more progressives in Congress, and a few less Blue Dogs and Republicans, that motion will accelerate very substantially.

          My characterization of screamers and petulant foot stompers applies to ALL single issue advocates, who think their subjective personal issue trumps all other issues.

          As far as I am concerned, the most important issue, ultinately, indeed, the ONLY issue, really, is democracy.  Without it, we are ALL royally fucked, regardless of the issue.  We don't have it.  We must get it.  And the only way we will get it is by mobilizing the electorate, to vote.

          As much as I might totally agree with the various laundry lists of serious problems and egregious shortcomings thus far, around gay rights, the economy, health care, the wars, the environment, or whatever...I do NOT agree with demonizing Obama and "teh Dems" over any those problems and shortcomings.  

          Obama and the party, such as they now are, are far from ideal, and I harbor no illusions about that.  

          But they are not "the same" as, nor are they worse than, the Blue Dogs and Republicans.  

          I find it particularly annoying to see some people conflating the Blue Dog traitors with "teh Dems".  The Blue Dogs are not "the party", even though they have usurped some key leadership positions in the party.  I expect to them to be removed from those positions, as the progressive plurality increases.

          Clearly, for anyone with a brain, the main problem is the Republicans, and the Blue Dogs, who are freakin' anti-democratic traitors, who will never submit to the popular democratic will, and thus absolutely must be more substantially purged and suppressed, democratically, electorally, for us to advance, or to have any hope whatsoever for more meaningful resolution of ANY issue.

          Cynical defeatism and demoralization are NOT going to accomplish that.

          Particularly in the case of gay rights, Obama has done more than any other president, Ever, and the Democratic Party has certainly been far more supportive than the Republicans, most of whom would seem to prefer to just kill all gays, in case you haven't noticed.

          So, I can only surmise that those who would clearly insinuate that the Democrats are absolutely non-viable, and undeserving of continued support, because of WHATEVER problem or shortcoming, around any given issue, are either incredibly stupid, or more likely, duplicitous weaseling trolls.

          I might add, If people want to be sooo sensitive about straights watching their mouths, and not saying anything whatsoever that could, by any conceivable stretch of the imagination, be construed, or maliciously twisted, as being homophobic, or gratuitously insulting, then maybe those people should also extend that to how they themselves talk about Obama and the Democratic Party, at least when posting on a site dedicated (by TOS) to electing more better Democrats.

          Your denial that anyone has been doing what I described in my initial post, is simply incorrect.   The gay community, like any other, has unprincipled elements, fools and swine within it, and false-flag operatives, as well, seeking to discredit not only the Democrats, but also the gay community, no doubt.

          My initial comment was in response to the Diarist mentioning that an all-too common extreme hyperbolic negativity was emerging in the comments about his Diary, and I was commenting on that, in general terms, as to the irrational, and thus probably deliberately disingenuous nature of that tendency.

          You can claim that I don't "understand", or insinuate that maybe I'm just a homophobe, or a goddamn liar, lol, but none of those assertions are true, no matter how sincerely or adamantly you may bring them.

          "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

          by Radical def on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 10:02:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Damn, you're preemptive. You assume I'm... (0+ / 0-)

            ...on the verge of calling you names. Nope. Just said that you have no clue to the importance of gay rights to those of us affected by the lack thereof.

            My objection to your parent comment was your dismissal of gay rights as something gay people selfishly "obsess" over.

            Rings clueless to me, as someone who a few months ago laid his almost-40-year-long life partner to rest, knowing that our fight to secure the rights and privileges of marriage had ended, but that the inequities of American law would go on -- for others like us and for me personally, as I've settled his estate as an "executor" and not his spouse and encountered all of the usual hassles, roadblocks, and denial of rights never faced by straight Americans. BTW, guess what happened to all of the SSI money he paid into that system for almost 40 years? Yes, you get it -- you and other straight American surviving spouses, including those of you who belittle a rights struggle with demeaning comments about "obsessing" over an issue that you have no appreciation for, nor apparently any understanding of.

            Learn more about second-class U.S. citizenship at http://www.equalitymatters.org/

            by Larry Bailey on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 11:09:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  At risk of seeming over-defensive, contentious... (0+ / 0-)

              lol...I was just about to post this supplementary comment...will review your latest remarks, and respond further, if appropriate...

              Let me further say...as a long-haired hippie white male, since the '60's, and a communist, please believe me, I DO understand, poignantly, intimately, how scary, unnerving, depressing, oppressive...and enraging... it can be, to be subjected to constant irrational vicious hostility, discrimination, insults, threats and personal violence.

              I have been called a faggot, and a nigger, more times than i care to recall, and beaten up, my life threatened, denied jobs, housing, and even retail services, on numerous occasions over the past 50 years.

              While I would not necessarily equate that with the conditions faced by gays, people of color, or women, say...I think I do, in fact, at least have somewhat of a clue.

              For whatever it's worth, I also understand how one can become...extremely sensitized...to the extent of even over-reacting, in some cases, to perceived or potential slights and threats.

              I also understand how members of an oppressed demographic sector can often tend to feel a compelling need to assert oneself, aggressively...sometimes even to ridiculous lengths, and to lash out, and even deliberately seek to provocatively blow peoples' minds, with more or less outrageous behavior, even to the point of acting out some of the most negative stereotypes about their own demographic sector, with extreme emotional subjectivity, which can even, in some cases, manifest in a profound, but more or less unconscious, seeming self-hatred that seems compelled to deliberately elicit the most negative possible reactions from real, or perceived, representatives of the oppressor culture.

              I have seen this phenomenon among virtually all oppressed groups, including hippies (although I like to think I have grown up a lot, in that regard, heh)...youth, women, racial minorities, and yes, gays, sometimes do the stupidest things, out of that compulsion to kick off their oppression and assert themselves, sometimes taking it far beyond any rational level of legitimate need to stand up for themselves.

              I'm not saying that gays, or gay rights advocacy, or you, are all about such things, by a long shot...but I have seen it manifested fairly poignantly, on a number of occasions in the recently intensified hubris over gay issues, in some posts on dkos, and in the news...and I do think it needs to be called out for what it is...subjective, hyperbolic, and often irrational bullshit, which is too often unprincipled and harmful in it's own self.

              And that has sometimes gotten me HR'd into oblivion, lol, and pretty harshly attacked, unjustly, I think...which has provoked some heightened sensitivity on my own part, in that regard, heh.

              While I do try to watch my mouth, and to avoid speaking carelessly in a manner that might be considered offensive, or even potentially offensive, sometimes I do make stupid errors, or exert insufficient caution, in that regard.  

              And it can be more difficult to maintain such effort, when one feels subject to unjust, or unprincipled attack...which, of course, cuts both ways, and can tend to go around and around, heh.

              Like anyone else, I can also get too subjective, and even harsh with my rhetoric, especially online, which seems to evoke such tendencies in it's more or less remote, anonymous insulation from more direct, personal interchange.

              It was not my intention or desire to provoke, disparage or dismiss you, or gay people, per se, in any of my remarks, and I am very sincerely sorry if that was the impression you got.  

              I am usually very candid about my thoughts and opinions, sometimes to a fault...and sometimes it's very hard for me to restrain myself, when I feel the need to make a point....as I may have overdone here, in presenting this little analysis of common reactions to cultural oppression, lol.

              I haven't directly dealt very much with specifically gay issues or the gay community, so I can see how I may still have a lot to learn, about how to make what I consider to be legitimate points, without giving undue offense.  

              Please take these lengthy efforts to convey my...understanding... as an indication that I am not just some absolute pig, who doesn't care about your concerns, or who seeks to merely spew hostility toward gays.

              Since this comment thread is long gone from the front pages, I expect nobody will see it but you...I just wanted to reach out, and explain myself more, because, in fact, I do care about gay rights, and your personal feelings, very much.

              I'd welcome any response or advice you may have to offer.

              "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

              by Radical def on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 11:56:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let me hasten to offer sincere condolences... (0+ / 0-)

                I too have lost dear comrades, and family members, to the insane injustice of the present system of heartless oppression, and please believe me, I do know grief.

                Your most recent remarks do elicit genuine, sincere tears of compassion for your situation, and rage over your treatment, in specific, and in general.

                I can only say that it has been a long hard struggle...and it's not over yet.

                I almost left the country, when Nixon was elected, but resolved to stay, and fight to the death, for the higher principles that it represents, and I've never given up...and I'm not going to do so now.

                We will prevail, my friend...I am certain of it.

                The struggle continues.

                "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

                by Radical def on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 12:15:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I wish I had read beyond the first lines (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larry Bailey

              of your post, before posting my own supplemental remarks...

              After going back and reading your entire post, I must...apologize...for any seeming insensitivity of my lols in that text, which I had just finished drafting, and was about to post when yours popped up.

              Again, my heart goes out to you, and everyone who has suffered in such an egregous manner.

              "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

              by Radical def on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 12:32:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  So...It occurs to me to ask... (0+ / 0-)

              Were you really responding to my supposed insensitivity about how very very much gays really really care about gay rights, or were you really just reacting to my mention of Libertarians and others whose only purpose on dkos is to slag Obama and the Democrats, and who tend to respond to objections to that with a lot of bullshit persiflage?

              In reviewing this thread, I'm getting the...uncomfortable...feeling that maybe I've just been "punk'd" in that regard, lol, emo sucker that I am.

              Care to address the real content and meaning of my initial Comment, about unprincipled weasels, gay or otherwise, who defy the TOS?

              "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

              by Radical def on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 03:45:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Was responding to you very real... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Radical def

                ...and not "supposed" insensivity to how much Gay Americans care about their rights. You made comments that struck a nerve in me, given my life and my recent personal loss. That's all. As to people who diss Dems without reason other than an apparent animosity toward the party, I liberally HR them, no matter their orientation, though with the milquetoast-y approach of this Presidency, it's getting harder and harder to tell the justifiably upset Progressives from the trolls. A lot of people are unhappy, you know.

                Learn more about second-class U.S. citizenship at http://www.equalitymatters.org/

                by Larry Bailey on Wed Sep 22, 2010 at 05:30:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  kk...fair enough (0+ / 0-)

                  ...although I think it's far more appropriate to direct the anger and unhappiness at the Republicans, and to clearly delineate re: Blue Dogs, rather than speaking in terms of "teh Dems".

                  While the party as a whole, and Obama, are far from ideal, I think the first priority is to remove the corrupting and coercive influence of the right...once that has been more substantially accomplished, THEN we can sort out the "liberals" and "progressives", heh,.

                  I think the party would be able to do a hell of a lot more, if they were not literally being held hostage by the right, forcing them to make onerous compromises to get even the slightest, most inadequate things done, and to prevent complete reversal on everything accomplished in the past.

                  I think a good deal of the angst and despair many people are expressing is largely driven by MSM, who are deliberately trying to demoralize us and set us against each other.

                  For all the awareness about how much MSM lies and spins everything, far too many people here still seem to buy into the memes, far too much. such as "teh Dems are doomed".

                  Right now, power is hanging by a thread.  Just a few more progressives, and a few less Blue Dogs and Republicans in Congress, will shift that balance of power very significantly, such that we can really surge forward into the 21st Century.

                  This is no time to give up...or to attack the only party that's even trying to do what needs done.  

                  All fire should be directed at the right, where the real obstacles and fundamental problems reside.

                  "...a printing press is worth 10,000 rifles..." Ho Chi Minh

                  by Radical def on Thu Sep 23, 2010 at 10:19:57 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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