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View Diary: To the Young Voters...Shakers and Movers (94 comments)

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  •  There isn't an alternative -- that's my point (3+ / 8-)

    The party leaderships are united on war, debt, finance, and an ever-intrusive federal state.  Yes there are a few marginal differences: a couple of percentage points in the highest tax rate that would bring in pennies compared to a $1T annual deficit.  That's not something that gets me too excited about one way or the other.  The version of HCR that we got is, I am convinced, the same half-baked measures we would have gotten with McCain compromising with Dems.  The window dressing is a bit different between parties, but on the most important issues of state: war, fiscal security, and civil liberties, there's barely the proverbial dime's worth of difference between the leadership of the two parties.  Plus, Obama still has a "veto."

    •  Have another! (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GN1927, kalmoth, Larsstephens

      Obama = McCain?

      "[T]here's barely the proverbial dime's worth of difference between the leadership of the two parties"?

      These are lies.
      Yes, they sound like opinions.  But they're not.
      Hr'd.
      Again.

      "There is nothing impossible to him who will try." -Alexander the Great

      by The Octopus on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 12:39:57 PM PDT

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      •  A lie is something a person knows to be untrue (0+ / 0-)

        I don't believe my statements to be untrue.  But it's not worth arguing....my apathy is already pretty well set.  :-) HR all you want.

        •  Actually what you have is proud ignorance, (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GN1927, kefauver, Vetwife, The Octopus

          the same fuel teabaggers get high on.

          Your assertions that a McCain admin would be the same and such are 100% false. Phil Gramm was in line to be Treasury Secretary. There would be NO health care reform under Repubs at all. There would be war with Iran.

          You're so wrong, and you're not entitled to a different set of facts.

          Your apathy is based on ignorance, if you had something of a reasonable argument you could just be ignored, but your spouting off of of fanciful lies you believe gets you hr'd.

          The Great Recession is a happy happy joy joy time to drop your obsolete skills and train for new ones.

          by doinaheckuvanutjob on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 02:05:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  The poster mentioned (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Support Civil Liberty

        ...specific issues where he/she feels that there is little difference on the war, on fiscal policy, and on civil liberties. Nothing that I haven't seen on here a thousand times.

        Poster said Obama = McCain on health care, not Obama = McCain.

    •  Wunderbar. (7+ / 0-)

      We've heard your complaints. Your realistic fixes, now? If you don't care about the election anymore, and you don't care about either side, why are you on this site at all?

      Palin's 2012 Slogan: "Second Verse, Same As The First"
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      by weatherdude on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 12:41:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That was the argument that Ralph Nader made. (7+ / 0-)

      We got George W. Bush. Feh

      •  Oh, for the love of Christ. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis, Support Civil Liberty

        I'm so sick of reading this same stupidity here, over and over and over.  You got George W. Bush because George W. Bush stole the election.  Gore won it, but wouldn't fight to keep it, and Nader had nothing to do with it.

        "Americans are a wonderful people: They will always do the right thing--after exhausting every other possible alternative."--Winston Churchill

        by keikekaze on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 03:47:46 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vetwife, The Octopus

          the center perceived (correctly) that Gore would be a move to the left from the DLC Clinton.  On top of that, they wanted to punish Clinton for his infidelities.    And the Left stabbed Gore, and the country, in the back.

          Thanks for playing, and thanks for the wars.

          Americans do not burn books.

          by Rustbelt Dem on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 05:48:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  "stolen election" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueoasis, Rustbelt Dem

            that b.s. has always seemed to me a convenient way to explain away a whole myriad of mistakes that the left and the Democrats made during the 2000 election cycle.

            The 2000 election was not "stolen" from us.  

            We gave it away.

            "There is nothing impossible to him who will try." -Alexander the Great

            by The Octopus on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 06:17:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  To be fair (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              The Octopus

              the deck was kind of stacked against us in terms of blatant media support for W.  But on the whole you're right

              Americans do not burn books.

              by Rustbelt Dem on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 07:22:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  That is strange (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis

              I didn't realize that we were all sitting
              on the supreme court in Sandra Day O'Conner's seat.  Had the votes been counted, Gore would have won in Florida and yes it was stolen by the Supreme Court, Katherine Harris and Bush tactics.
              Call that losing if you like, I call it
              Deck stacked against democracy and disenfranchisement.  Stolen......from everyday people who cast their votes and it didn't count.

              •  Deck stacking (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                blueoasis

                Exactly what happened and what the different outcomes would have or could have been depending on exactly how the votes were counted in Florida will never be resolved.  Counterfactuals are intellectually interesting, but not terribly useful in historical analysis.

                We will have to agree to disagree on the causal relationship between whatever the Bushs, Ktherine Harris, and the SCOTUS did with respect to that election, though.  I believe the fact is that Gore ran a terrible campaign.  The Democrats put themselves in a position where a few hundred votes mattered.  That's pretty much inexcusable, seeing as how he stood to inherit a presidency that had just witnessed the longest peatime economic expansion in American history.  Unlike recent history, there was very, very little for the vast majority of people to be upsset about in 2000, yet they decided to change horses anyway.

                I think another flaw in the "stolen election" argument is that the lack of response from Democrats and the left belies it.  Where was the revolution?  Where were people taking to the streets, attempting to take their government back by force, and to depose someone who had no right whatsoever to be in power?  It didn't happen.  People might not have liked the outcome at all.  If, as you say, we had sat in O'Connor's seat, perhaps we would have voted differently (as an attorney, I think the best vote would have been for the SCOTUS not to take the case at all).  But people accepted the process, however flawed and however disappointing the outcome.  There was no revolution.  When we accept the process and the rtesult, then that's not "stealing" anything.  

                Rather than grinding axes about a few votes in Florida, the message the Left needs very much to take away from the 2000 election -- which is highly applicable to today -- is that Americans will accept only incremental change from elected national leaders. If you want big, sea changes in America there's only two places to get them: (1) grass-roots advocacy and organization and (2) litigation.

                Had Gore run on "I will do exactly what the Big Dog did, minus the sex," he'd have won in a landslide.

                "There is nothing impossible to him who will try." -Alexander the Great

                by The Octopus on Thu Sep 30, 2010 at 06:03:16 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I always wondered where the (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  blueoasis

                  senators were who could have challenged Florida's count.  It only took a senator to disagree.  I do agree he ran a terrible campaign.  Trust me, I know.  I was on it.  When we were in DC and I sat in on a meeting regarding the Staples Center, I never in my life saw such confusion.  It was like herding cats.

        •  Yeah the Nader crowd (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis

          sure showed the democrats that a close election means nothing.  Especially when a Bush and a court is standing in the wings waiting for Gore to be NOT COUNTED.
          Where is Nader and all of his principles today?  If I didn't know better I would have sworn he was working FOR the Bush team but then again, I don't know any better so that is anybody's guess.  He was giving people a choice, right?  Like he had a snow ball's chance in hell in defeating those two parties.

    •  A congress and senate (2+ / 0-)

      can override a veto.

    •  Vetwife (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kefauver

      Did you mean to rec this?

      I don't see a distinction between this comment and the prior one, which remains hidden.

      I don't want to unfairly HR anyone, especially in a diary as excellent as yours, so I wanted to hear your opinion on this matter as to whether I ought to w/d my HR.

      Thanks!

      "There is nothing impossible to him who will try." -Alexander the Great

      by The Octopus on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 01:20:45 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you have already made (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GN1927

      up your mind...why are you here discouraging people from finishing what we started in 08?  Are you so disappointed that you can't see it takes a movement for change, not an administration or person.  Do you think the GOP will listen to us?  NO !!!! The hope is with the people who are for change for the good not people who want to turn back the clock.  If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

    •  Yawn (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      turnover

      Naderites used to be more entertaining.  Now they are a caricature of themselves, like Ralph himself.  

      Americans do not burn books.

      by Rustbelt Dem on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 03:04:24 PM PDT

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    •  You have *got* to be kidding me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Octopus

      The version of HCR that we got is, I am convinced, the same half-baked measures we would have gotten with McCain compromising with Dems.

      Fantastical.  Utter fantasy, "both parties are the same," nonsense.

    •  been there, heard this....what did it get us the (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      The Octopus

      last time.... 8 YEARS OF BUSH.  if those 8 years didnt teach you that there most certainly IS a difference between the parties...  btw we would have gotten absolute SQUAT in the way of healthcare had McCain won the election so quit fooling yourself.

      "can you please continue the petty bickering...I find it most intriguing" DATA

      by KnotIookin on Wed Sep 29, 2010 at 03:21:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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