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View Diary: "It's not just gays" (267 comments)

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  •  But the hurt and pain is no less (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dov12348, Uberbah

    correct? The miserable, sinking feeling everytime they go to school. The dread between classes, lunchtime, and afterschool - how is it different for the "ugly, geeky" kid and the "LGBT" kid? Both instances can (and do) end up in a heartbreaking escape via suicide.

    The families and friends left behind are not grieving less or more. And it's no less or more a tragedy.

    ...one foot out the DKos door...

    by angeleyes on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 01:19:57 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  ummm .... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gabriella, i like bbq, kyril, FeDhu

      you miss the point.

      Many gay youth don't have anyone to turn to, particularly in rural areas.  And even if they do have some group out there that can help, seeking that help may in their mind only further stigmatize them.  Are there "ugly" kids who DON'T have the support of their families?  Maybe so, but far less likely than for GLBTQ kids.

      America simply does not need the [GOP] as ... currently constituted. If it cannot reform itself, it needs to die. - Brad DeLong

      by billlaurelMD on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 01:36:54 PM PDT

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      •  Opinion or fact? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RamblinDave, dov12348

        Are there "ugly" kids who DON'T have the support of their families?  Maybe so, but far less likely than for GLBTQ kids.

        Is this based on anecdote, opinion, or fact? And I ask this respectfully.

        I work for a youth program. I've seen many kids who have been isolated from their family because they were "too smart" (whatever that means), not athletic enough, ugly, refusing to be like the rest of the family and REFUSING to become a gang member - you'd be surprised. I've counseled a young lady who was incredibly overweight and struggled with self esteem and hygiene issues due to rejection by her mother and the constant abuse of her mother's "boyfriends".

        This happens more than you realize in various communities (in communities of color this is rampant). These kids are just as shut of familial support as anyone.

        ...one foot out the DKos door...

        by angeleyes on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 01:55:11 PM PDT

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        •  It's based on my personal experience (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dov12348, kyril

          when I was growing up. And stories of many gay people I have known after I became an adult.  It's probably somewhat less true now than it was, I'll grant that.

          Being different in general is not respected, I guess, is your point.

          America simply does not need the [GOP] as ... currently constituted. If it cannot reform itself, it needs to die. - Brad DeLong

          by billlaurelMD on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 02:13:04 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  When churches validate the bullying of (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          decca, kerplunk, dov12348, Uberbah, kyril, Keori

          people who are "too smart," not athletic enough, ugly, fat, refusing to be like the rest of the family, refusing to join a gang, etc., because such people have rejected the rules of "god" and are going to hell....

          ... come back and argue your point.

          •  Whoa just a minute (0+ / 0-)

            I am an evangelical Christian and EMPHATICALLY My church doesn't validate any such thing, so the broad brushed generalizations are not helpful.

            Secondly, do you think for a minute that the opinion of a church or anyone else mattered to my little counselee? She was in pain. Period. The fact that she wasn't gay doesn't lessen that.

            ...one foot out the DKos door...

            by angeleyes on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 04:34:16 PM PDT

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            •  Nobody said your church did. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TiaRachel, kerplunk, Keori

              The point is that a lot of churches do. Are you going to deny that?

              Nor is your "little counselee" the point of this discussion. I'm sure she was in pain. I agree she needed help. This diary is not about her.

              •  I was providing a point of view (0+ / 0-)

                that's what done in diaries, I believe. But carry on. I'll allow you to carry on your rather circular conversation.

                ...one foot out the DKos door...

                by angeleyes on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 04:56:43 PM PDT

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                •  You Are The One With The Circular Conversation. (0+ / 0-)

                  In my opinion you are missing the point of this diary totally.

                  250 is the new 180

                  by kerplunk on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 05:40:52 PM PDT

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                  •  She's not here for the discussion (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kerplunk

                    She's here to attempt the argument that even though her religion opposes equality for GLBT people, that somehow, she doesn't really hate us. Only a little bit, and in a polite way, and never openly admitting the fact that her religion calls us an abomination, and being gay a choice.

                    See also trolling, concern.

                    When are you going to understand that being normal is not necessarily a virtue? It rather denotes a lack of courage. - Practical Magic

                    by Keori on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 05:54:25 PM PDT

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        •  However, how many of those kids (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TiaRachel

          have to (or feel they have to) keep those traits secret from their families? That's an additional burden that GLBT kids face.

          The schools will probably teach kindergartners to play nice with everyone. — Will Phillips, on how marriage equality would affect education

          by ebohlman on Mon Oct 04, 2010 at 01:03:18 AM PDT

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      •  It's not a competition. The problems that (5+ / 0-)

        gay teens face must and are being specifically addressed in some schools. This shouldn't minimize the problems that other teens face because of bullying. High school can be a brutal experience for kids who are different in any way, whether because of their race, their religion, their accent, their weight, their looks, their financial and social status.

        I never liked you and I always will.

        by Ray Blake on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 02:19:31 PM PDT

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        •  Agreed: Bullying is reprehensible, and (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TiaRachel, dov12348, kyril, Ray Blake

          bullies seek out those to torment that they think they can get away with.

          My daughters have several gay friends, and several of them have families who will not accept their sexuality (mostly they are kept in the dark, for fear of rejection).

          I have tried to make these young people feel welcome, accepted, and free to visit my family at any time, and in fact try to put them in touch with various resources, including the latest "It Gets Better" project.

          Luckily, there seems to be tremendous support and acceptance of gay youth in our local HS, so that is not the problem I feared it might be. I realize this is not true everywhere, of course!

          The lack of family support weighs on these kids, though, and I think knowing that other adults, including myself and their teachers and school counselors, all are available if necessary, provides a crucial buffer during difficult years of teen transition and self-exploration.

          And I have spoken out when a straight kid I know was bullied, as well. It is important for community adults to be visible, vocal, and to insist on correct action and accountability in all such situations! MHO and experience.

          Life is a school, Love is the lesson.

          by means are the ends on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 03:13:19 PM PDT

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        •  Absolutely, Ray n/t (0+ / 0-)

          ...one foot out the DKos door...

          by angeleyes on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 04:40:43 PM PDT

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      •  But they're not the only ones (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dov12348, Uberbah

        You're right, many GLBT youth are indeed stuck with nowhere to go, and that's horrible. But they're not the only ones who can be alienated at that age, and they're not the only ones who can feel completely hopeless and alone. I don't deny that homophobia presents a unique - and terrible - set of circumstances; but gay kids are not the only ones who can feel terribly alone.

        •  I think what you and the others are missing (10+ / 0-)

          is that GLBT youth can experience all of the same sorts of things as straight youth - we come from abusive families, we're ugly, we're fat, we're geeky, we're unathletic, we're "too smart," we're isolated, we're shy, we're racial minorities, we're physically disabled, we have learning disabilities, we're anything any other kid can be. And then we're GLBT on top of that.

          That extra layer makes everything else worse. It makes us more likely to be rejected, more likely to have nobody to turn to, more likely to be afraid of our parents or of school authorities. And more likely to be bullied.

          It's different. You can see the difference in the suicide statistics. It's different and it needs to be addressed.

          •  This one I cannot get out of my mind... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, Shaviv

            "Don't do vibrato. It'll come naturally when you're old and shakey." - Miles Davis (from his music teacher)

            by dov12348 on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 04:16:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's... food for thought. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dov12348, kyril

              I'd really like to see if some work has been done, or could been done, investigating the family backgrounds of children accused of harassment, assault, etc. of fellow children - do they differ, somehow, from the rest of us? My suspicion is that they do, but only in relatively small and subtle ways. My guess is, it's less likely to be the obvious things like household income and more things like how the child's parents and role models impart moral or ethical values.

              "Getting over" death in the family is like learning to use a prosthetic limb: you can still get around, but it just doesn't work the same.

              by Shaviv on Sun Oct 03, 2010 at 07:02:58 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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