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  •  I'd tip you, but my rec-ability was amputated. (22+ / 0-)

    Consider this a virtual rec.

    Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

    by RandomActsOfReason on Wed Oct 06, 2010 at 09:42:04 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks.... (9+ / 0-)

      You were IDF, right? What do you think of this article: A Special Place in Hell / Confessions of an Israeli anti-settler bigot?

      I'm not a little giant... I'm a freakin' leprechaun

      by volleyboy1 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 at 10:00:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  strong story! (21+ / 0-)

        non-IDF, non-I, so FWIW I was moved.

        The majority here wants a state of Israel alongside a sovereign and separate state of Palestine. The majority is fed up. The majority sees the settlements as a bad bargain for Israel. The majority is tired of being pushed around. The majority loves Israel and wants it to continue to exist.

        We need a new bargain, this time with the Palestinians. And we need more courage than we know. In a Yom Kippur sermon on the meaning of courage, Rabbi Keith Stern of Newton, Mass., said "If we are afraid to fail, then we are useless. If we are afraid of criticism, we are useless. If we are afraid to stand up and speak the truth because the truth is not a popular commodity, then we are useless."

        The majority must make a choice.

        I've made mine. The actions of Ariel in rushing out bulldozers to break the freeze this week made the decision for me. I support the boycott of Ariel. My taxes and my betrayed votes for Labor and my army service built that place. As far as I'm concerned, the deal's done. The bargain's over. The settlers are not my enemy, but the settlements are. I want my country back.

        nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect

        by erratic on Wed Oct 06, 2010 at 10:20:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  This article is an example of buyer's remorse (13+ / 0-)

        for a parallel, in the 50s and 60s, the US populace accepted the premise we were the protectors of the world democracies and that we must stem Communism where ever it reared its head. On this premise we slowly invested men and treasure into VN but by 1964, it slowly became evident we were going to be invested in the long term and by 1968 we knew it was a bad investment and by 1970, there was a growing feeling that we had to get out of the situation as it only represented a continuing drag on the US. Afghanistan today is a microcosm of that process today for the US.

        However the Israeli public faces a tremendous obstacle today in trying to rein in the settlement movement. Not only is it disproportionately politically potent in Israel, it is allied with the Christian Zionists in the US. In listening to such channels as the 700 Club and the NRB channel and CBN, it is obvious that Hagee is not alone in his goals.
        The goal of the Christian Zionists is the re-establishment of Greater Israel (though historically this is an uncertain concept) and the expulsion of the "barbaric hordes" (sorry but I am quoting) of Palestinians.
        The second goal is the return of all Jews to Israel. While at this point this reverse diaspora is mainly through financial incentives, I have to wonder what the Christian Zionists plan for Jews who do not wish to return.  Their dogma requires all Jews must return, no exceptions.
        Less clear is their requirement that at some point, all Jews (who are not allied with the AntiChrist) will convert to Christianity. It is somewhere between the return and the conversion that I begin to detect antisemitism among the Christian Zionists. I have to wonder if at some future point the settler movement will not regret its Faustian bargain with the Christian Zionists?    

    •  How is that? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Bluesee

      Do you mean your ability Rec has been removed for some reason?  

      I have never heard of that here, just losing TU status (happened to me a couple of times but no meaning since I never HR anything).

      Just curious if that can happen and why.

      What about my Daughter's future?

      by koNko on Wed Oct 06, 2010 at 11:11:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  probably logged out (0+ / 0-)

        if cookies were cleaned for example.

        "It takes two to lie. One to lie, one to hear it." Homer Simpson

        by Euroliberal on Wed Oct 06, 2010 at 11:52:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It is a sanction (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AllisonInSeattle, Demena, kyril

        I think it is a counterproductive sanction, personally, for an online community.

        Losing TU status for allegedly abusing HRs makes sense. But losing the ability to up-rec a good comment makes no sense. It takes away a positive means to contribute to the community. If anything, it just forces one to make a lot of short "I agree" comments all over the place, otherwise people think you are ignoring or disagreeing with them because you haven't rec'd their response.

        The rules and moderation here should be designed to facilitate and ease constructive, positive contributions, and to inhibit negative ones.

        The only reason I could understand taking away someone's ability to rec up, is if there was a concerted group effort to rec up hostile comments and/or trolls to game the system.

        Which, come to think of it, is exactly what was happening when I got so frustrated I HR'd two viciously inappropriate comments that the same group we rec up each other's comment in consistently.

        But I was never accused of inappropriately uprating a bad comment, because I don't do that kind of thing.

        Sigh.

        It's ok, I've given up on trying to help the system and design of this site work better. No one is listening up in book-tour pundit-land.

        Anyway, didn't mean to make that the topic of the conversation, just wanted to explain why I couldn't tip you or rec any comment I agreed with in this discussion.

        Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

        by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 12:17:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Aren't you supposed to get a note before MB (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW

          asseses penalties?  If you didn't, go to Tech.

          When I come on DKos, it is often the case that I get lurker status, the ability to read but nothing else, and I then hit the refresh button and it usually comes back. Or I go to my page, where my diaries and comments show, and go back to Home from there, and it comes back. Or I go to 'recent diaries,' where current comments and therefor the recc button as well, work even if it doesn't show in the front page. Try tech, who say it is probably a cookie or cache problem, where you scrub to keep the trojans and such out and it also scrubs out DKos cookies. It usually helps as well if you hit Logout, and then log in again.  DKos is not shy in telling you it doesn't love you so much anymore and if they haven't, its most likely something in the security programming of your OS or your ISP or your security program. If you are trying the remedies and it starts again after every scheduled security sweep, it's your security program.  I am a dork at programming, so I have all these ad hoc answers, but try them, and see if one works for you.

          •  I did get a note (0+ / 0-)

            that doesn't make it a constructive sanction.

            AS I said, limiting the ability to HR makes sense, limiting the ability to TR does not.

            Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

            by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 12:16:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You're mistaken. Giving 4s to insults and... (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brecht, sofia, blueness, Vinnie Vegas, JesseCW

              ...other comments that should not be recommended is just as bad as HRing comments inappropriately. Indeed, many ratings abusers try to fly under the radar by uprating comments that shouldn't be. Ratings abusers are warned ahead of time that their ratings privileges will be taken away, and it makes no differnce whether they are HRing or uprating inappropriately. You were warned twice in this regard.

              Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 12:44:15 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am pleased to see you say this out loud, Meteor (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                capelza

                as it is my biggest beef with many regular denizens of I/P. We have plenty on both sides (each of us, really, on bad days) who can craft good arguments and carry on polite conversation with their opponents, so they certainly could rate judiciously if they set their minds to it.

                Until the team play starts. And suddenly it's like you've been cut off twice in heavy traffic, you get a little bit monster - you see opponents uprating their team's idiocy, and so you do a bit of it for your own side.

                Anyway, Mr. Blades, thanks for your vigilance in keeping the ratings fair - that is, after all, what they're for.

                "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

                by Brecht on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 02:50:26 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I've been saying a version of this out loud... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Brecht

                  ...since July 1 when I started handing out warnings for bogus uprating. Some of those warnings turned into ratings suspensions. A couple have turned into bans because the users just didn't get it.

                  Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 03:53:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Perhaps I should pay closer attention. (0+ / 0-)

                    The turbulent white noise here hurts my ears, some months.

                    Mostly pleased, I guess, that whenever I pay attention it appears that you do get it.

                    "Problems can't be solved by the same level of thinking that created them" Einstein

                    by Brecht on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 04:01:55 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I was warned of HR abuse, NOT uprating (0+ / 0-)

                comments that should not be recommended.

                I think that, from a community building standpoint, I think it does make a difference - people who HR inappropriately should have their HR privileges revoked, not their uprate privileges. You provide essentially no means for someone to demonstrate good will as a rehabilitation process, and, more importantly, you just increase the traffic of "I agree" comments, rather than keeping that in the rec department, and encouraging more substantial comments.

                You also increase the opportunities for misunderstandings and hostility - I often rec up a comment of someone I am debating, to show good will and to praise a substantive comment (as opposed to the all too common insulting ones). When someone puts an effort into making a thoughtful point, and you don't rec them up, they may feel more defensive.

                As for "many ratings abusers try to fly under the radar by uprating comments that shouldn't be - that may be technically true, but, in the context of this discussion, it is another instance of you insinuating or implying that I am engaging in reprehensible behavior.

                Since you never documented your assertion that I regularly deny the existence of white racism, regularly defend the tea party, and that my arguments are "akin" to "the progenitors of Jim Crow", adding the implication that I try to game the system here is just further evidence of the mistake of having a top moderator engage in argumentative discussions in the diaries.

                I HR'd exactly two comments in the midst of a flamewar where HR abuse and uprating of over the top insults was rampant, and utterly ignored. It was an expression of frustration at the lack of proper moderation and the lack of tools for us to help moderate these forums.

                The little gang who consistently abuse the rules don't seem to be sanctioned by you at all - and certainly are not the subject of public, ugly character smears like the ones you tossed my way.

                The more you publicly chastise those that stand up to them, the more you empower thuggish behavior and overt rules abuse. They are boasting about it now, and using your personal insults as weapons against those who stand up to them.

                I'm not mistaken. The current moderation system doesn't work, and doesn't make much sense in light of what is known about online community dynamics, particularly in large communities.

                This community is getting uglier and more disfunctional. I have very, very, very little input into that either way. You are the Moderator, Markos is the Owner. I'm just one voice out of thousands.

                The fact that other communities have thrived for years without this kind of disfunction proves that it isn't the fault of the members here that things are not working.

                Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

                by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 02:54:31 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  "I HR'd exactly two comments in ... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  sofia, OIL GUY

                  ...in the midst of a flamewar where HR abuse and uprating of over the top insults was rampant, and utterly ignored."

                  You keep saying this, but you keep ignoring the fact that you had been warned twice previously about your ratings abuses. Moreover you do not know how many other people were warned during that particular flamewar.

                  Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 03:05:02 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Given that the worst abusers continue (0+ / 0-)

                    to uprate and HR, they obviously haven't been sanctioned.

                    And given your continued refusal to document the ugly public aspersions you cast on my character (in violation of your own rules requiring documentation of accusations of racism), it is clear you aren't an objective observer in this case.

                    I find it interesting that I was sanctioned immediately after submitting a complaint to you about rampant HR and uprec abuse by two members of the very same gang who caused the trouble in the first place, and whose arguments you supported with your attacks saying my arguments were "akin" to "the progenitors of Jim Crow".

                    Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

                    by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 03:09:24 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  My remarks concerning your... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      vcmvo2, sofia, OIL GUY

                      ...comments on the Naches tea party float were clear and related to that diary. I do not plan to comment further on that subject. I've informed you of your right of appeal.

                      Don't tell me what you believe. Tell me what you do and I'll tell you what you believe.

                      by Meteor Blades on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 03:14:38 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You clearly commented generally beyond that diary (0+ / 0-)

                        I have read extensively your views....

                        ...about what does and does not constitute racism. I don't find them complex. I find them offensive. Your "rational" dismissal of the views of others in these matters, boiled down, amounts to repeated assertions of that's-not-racism and that's-not-either. This is insulting and frequently verges on racism itself. Not everything tea partiers do is based on racism, to be sure, and few people are saying that. But you repeatedly deny even the most obvious instances of tea party racism, such as that exhibited in Naches. Dress up that denial in "rationality" all you like. The progenitors of Jim Crow had theories to back up their behavior, too.

                        Those are the comments that are frequently quoted here by the little gang of  thugs here. It is crystal clear to them, as to me, what you were saying about me.

                        You made not one, but several accusations that I am a racist, a racist denier, and that my arguments are similar to those of the progenitors of Jim Crow.

                        Then, of course, you simply said you were only talking about "THIS DIARY" - but then went on, again, to state,

                        Some of your arguments sometimes verge on what I consider to be racism and  the constant appeal to so-called rationality to attack various users here who raise the issue of racism is not unlike the seemingly rational arguments in favor of racism put forth by the inventors and maintainers of Jim Crow. Does that make you a backer of Jim Crow? No. Does that make you a supporter of the Tea Party? No.

                        Your use of "extensively reviewed", "repeated assertions", "repeatedly deny", "such as that exhibited in Naches", "some of your arguments sometimes verge on", "constant appeal to so-called rationality...not unlike the seemingly rational arguments in favor of racism put forth by the inventors and maintainers of Jim Crow",

                        Those repeated, deliberate terms make clear that you are accusing me not of making a bad argument in a single diary, but of a consistent pattern of arguments that lead you to draw conclusions about my character and intent.

                        You have refused to substantiate a single one of your accusations.

                        You have refused to withdraw your ugly insinuations and outright accusations.

                        You have refused to comment on others - particularly a specific group of people - quoting your comments back to me whenever they encounter me.

                        Meteor Blades, your accusations are false and unfounded. You have no evidence to back them up. They are personally offensive. They are inappropriate for someone in your position to make. They are lies.

                        My right to appeal? Really? So I write an email to Markos saying, "Tim called me a racist, I'm not a racist"? Yeah, that is going to solve everything.

                        Give me a break. You are abusing your power here. refusing to hold yourself to the rules you created, and also just exemplifying and modeling the worst type of behavior in an online community - attacking the messenger and employing character assassination and using insinuations and indirect smears to discredit a messenger, rather than rationally addressing the substance of their message.

                        And you don't help the cause of rational discourse by continually mocking "rationality" - or by your other comment mocking me for the length of my comments.

                        Stop hiding behind your badge. Either prove that I have "constantly, repeatedly" promoted arguments akin to the "progenitors of Jim Crow", that I have "constantly, repeatedly" denied the existence of racism in the Tea Party, that I have "constantly, repeatedly" denied the existence of white racism, period - or withdraw your allegations and publicly apologize - and tell the little gang of thugs to stop quoting those ugly words of yours.

                        Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

                        by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 07:26:30 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                •  nah. (0+ / 0-)

                  none of what you wrote is true.
                  none of it.
                  i've seen you post something like this before.
                  this seems to really get under your skin so i'll comment.

                  no one is boasting.
                  there are no gangs.
                  just people who agree in uprates and downrates from both sides.
                  that does not make them a gang.
                  even though i get what you mean.
                  when you disagree with a group of commenters, you start thinking they roam in a pack.
                  that is silly. they do not.
                  it's just you making them a gang just because they agree.
                  i guess you would think obama supporters at a rally are part of a gang?

                  and i've personally seen all parties berated.
                  and i've personally seen people i like and agree with  get their ratings pulled.
                  and i've seen people i don't care for and disgree iwth get their ratings pulled.
                  and i've had mine suspended before as well, before you go thinking i'm here to worship at the alter of MeteorBlades.

                  so all your accusations and  complaints?
                  i'm sorry.
                  not true at all.

                  The little gang who consistently abuse the rules don't seem to be sanctioned by you at all - and certainly are not the subject of public, ugly character smears like the ones you tossed my way.

                  The more you publicly chastise those that stand up to them, the more you empower thuggish behavior and overt rules abuse. They are boasting about it now, and using your personal insults as weapons against those who stand up to them.

                  I'm not mistaken. The current moderation system doesn't work, and doesn't make much sense in light of what is known about online community dynamics, particularly in large communities.

                  "Oh no...you changed your hair color? It's just so dark. You like it? And with your skin tone?" My Beloved Mom, December 25 2007, once again on notice.

                  by Christin on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 06:28:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I provided exhaustive evidence (0+ / 0-)

                    in a comment the day before yesterday, documenting how the members of this gang openly boast about their group gang-ups, about policing "their" turf and driving others out.

                    It is plainly evident to anyone who ever participates in any discussion on Daily Kos that includes the word "race", that there is a small group of people, numbering somewhere between half a dozen and a dozen, who unconditionally rate up each other's comment, regardless of content, and gang up to HR people they don't like, again regardless of content.

                    They openly and regularly accuse everyone who does not genuflect to the Tim Wise theory of social justice as a "white male privileged racist" - even though half of them are white and privileged themselves, including one of their most vocal ringleaders.

                    Not only do they regularly abuse MB's rules, but they boast about doing it, and they dare others to report them - which I regularly do. There have been no visible sanctions in particular against two posters who have abusively HR'd dozens of comments, nearly daily, and who regularly uprate the most abusive and ugly personal insults.

                    It is a gang. I realize it is easy to dismiss this as CT, but I posted quote after quote of them talking about themselves as a separate community on Daily Kos, and about their power to prevent others from expressing views they find objectionable.

                    Simply looking at the time stamps in many flamefests reveals how quickly a whole group of them appears in discussions that none of them were active participants in a moment before - not to contribute to the conversation, but to mass-HR or mass-uprate personal attacks.

                    BTW, this is not the first time in the history of DKos that such groups have existed.

                    It is, however, the first time in the history of DKos that such a group has apparent immunity and tacit suport from the Moderator, even so far as not to object to them using his words as a means of giving credibility to their character assassination.

                    I guarantee you that, even though I have named no names in this comment, I will be HR'd by a whole pack of them, as soon as they do their keyword search and one of them finds me here. Their notion of the fight for justice is to silence dissent.

                    Always make new mistakes - Esther Dyson

                    by RandomActsOfReason on Thu Oct 07, 2010 at 07:11:21 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ok, you... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      vcmvo2, sofia, Mets102

                      Don't bring those fights in here.  We have enough flame to fest-fest on our own in I/P.

                      It's bad enough you bring ugly comments to both sets of diaries.  

                      Not that you'll listen, but it had to be said.  Don't bother with a response.  

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