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View Diary: ALERT: GOP Bill to Suspend Laws IS MOVING! (211 comments)

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  •  Read section 102. (none)
    It is the sleeper clause in this otherwise tough sounding bill that will get us all put in prison with no recourse to any court.

    Our congressmen are not aware of this section of the bill.

    "Optimism is not for sissies." (an elderly man at the Progressive Dem Conference)

    by Percheronwoman on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 08:25:02 AM PST

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    •  This is what I'm talking about (none)
      If you make this argument to people in DC you will get nowhere.  Say it's a bad bill but say what it actually does and give the opponents your support in the media.  Don't assume your Congresspeople are ignorant, they're not.  They need issues like this to acheive prominence and focus people's attention so they can effectively combat them.  They don't need people badgering them and telling them they don't know what's in the bill.  
      •  Well, my dear (none)
        NO ONE I SPOKE WITH TODAY, and I called all over the palce, knew what House Bill 418 was, let alone what was in section 102.

        I am not some dumb ass who doesn't know how to talk to my politicians, so lay off the patronizing crap.  I get lots of places in DC, thanks.

        "Optimism is not for sissies." (an elderly man at the Progressive Dem Conference)

        by Percheronwoman on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:34:33 PM PST

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        •  Give me a break, my dear (none)
          You are definately starting to warrant patronizing.  You talked to Staff Assistants.  They answer phones.  They work hard, do great work, and generally have excellent personal skills but they don't do legislation.  They may or may not have heard of the bill but they certainly weren't going to discuss it with you.  It's simply not their job, and they won't waste time on it with you if you come across as hysterical as you do in these posts.

          Nobody says you have to know the workings of a Hill office inside and out in order to talk with your Reps but a little knowledge helps you be more effective.  What you are doing sounds to me to be counterproductive.  Go ahead, that's your right, but don't complain to me when I try to give others some info that will keep them from making the same mistakes you are.

    •  Can you explain this? (none)
      that will get us all put in prison with no recourse to any court

      That's a pretty big claim.

      If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

      by Georgia Logothetis on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:03:13 AM PST

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      •  Section 102 (none)
        Read broadly enough, Section 102 authorizes the  Secretary of Homeland Security to do anything he wants to anyone to accomplish the the goals authorized in this bill and no one can question his decisions. Worst case, this law makes the Secretary of Homeland Security the dictator of the United States.

        A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. - Emerson

        by freelunch on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:19:07 AM PST

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        •  No, it really doesn't (none)
          The language is bad.  It's probably the most ridiculously over-broad waiver I've ever seen but it doesn't make anyone a dictator.  It waives the environmental laws and (probably inadvertently) the labor laws.  The section on "no judicial review" is insane and, I think, clearly unconstitutional.  Heck, I'll even go with the argument that it's the camel's nose under the tent and we should resist it to make sure they know that they can't get away with it.  But I think arguing it makes the Secretary of Homeland Security the "dictator of the US" just delegitimizes the criticism and impedes our ability to fight stuff like this.  Just my opinion.
          •  I agree completely. n/t (none)

            If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

            by Georgia Logothetis on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 01:54:58 PM PST

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          •  Can't stop this (none)
            I agree with your practical interpretation of the law, I was only pointing out that a very aggressive secretary combined with a Supreme Court that was overly defferential could interpret the law this way.

            I didn't say it would do that, but it could, but I take your complaint seriously.

            A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. - Emerson

            by freelunch on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:08:43 PM PST

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        •  Georgia10 is a troll (none)
          my humble conclusion.

          "Optimism is not for sissies." (an elderly man at the Progressive Dem Conference)

          by Percheronwoman on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 03:35:21 PM PST

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          •  Sorry, she's not (none)
            Georgia10 is one of our heroes (heroines?) at DKos.

            Search for her diaries, you'll see what I mean.  She's brilliant, articulate, highly productive and a real progressive.

            She's asking a valid question, merely seeking clarification.

          •  So is this it? (none)
            Does this mean I've hit the big time now?  Being called a troll...that's like, a rite of passage at dkos, right?

            So what do I get?  A cookie?  A medal?  My max diaries upped to 3 day? ;)

            If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

            by Georgia Logothetis on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 05:36:06 AM PST

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            •  My sincere and heartfelt apologies (none)
              I was having a very bad day.

              Your award is that I will come and lick your toilet to clean it for a week, and you can kick me and say, "faster, troll!"

              "Optimism is not for sissies." (an elderly man at the Progressive Dem Conference)

              by Percheronwoman on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:15:44 AM PST

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              •  hehe, it's cool. (none)
                it's just that I feel like some are stretching this law too far, especially in light of case law dealing with the original 1996 Act.  I might post a diary on it later, if I have the time, but bascially, the idea that the this amendment will allow the Secretary to imprison people without judicial review is incorrect.

                Anyway, like I said, no problem. :)

                If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

                by Georgia Logothetis on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 09:18:42 AM PST

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                •  Thanks for being generous (none)
                  but a note about where I am coming from. I am an upper middle class professor in a liberal city in the NE, and have a lot of Muslim friends.  There have been several cases in our area where Muslims have been imprisoned (one famous case of a doctor from Syracuse) and have yet tom be charged with a crime.  In one case, the family has NO idea where the person is being held.  These things are happening right here in the USA.  So I am not just some wingnut.  Also, in teh case of the doctor from Syracuse (a colleague my husband vaguely knew as a physician), the FBI and HOmeland Security came to speak to Quakers who had hosted him as a speaker.  The FBI didn't come to their homes at 4:00 in the afternoon or at 10:00 in the morning, but at "weird" times, "because we knew we could find someone at home."  Times like VERY early in the morning (4ish) or very late at night.  The people who were visited felt one and all like they were being harrassed by a "knock in the night."  adn then some of the right wing ranters on talk shows started talking about how they should be using time of day to intimidate people when they make calls.  

                  These are not things I read about in the media.  These are things that happen to people I know.  

                  Also, and if I am a bit over the top, I am a fascism scholar (mainly religion and fascism in Japan, but lately doing a lot of research in Poland,  Lithuania and the Baltics on the Holocaust) and the literature about the zeitgeist in Yiddish and German from the 1930's is often centereed on people being called lunatics by their friends for suggesting that anything so crazy as geting locked up or put min camps could even be suggested.

                  NOw, I realize that yesterday I was quite worked up on this and not making rational arguments.  But in reality, I am genuinely scared by this government.  My husband and kids have EU citizenship, and many of our family members in Europe keep saying, "What are you people waiting for?"

                  Again, thanks for being so generous in accepting my apology.  I really appreciate it.

                  "Optimism is not for sissies." (an elderly man at the Progressive Dem Conference)

                  by Percheronwoman on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:13:19 AM PST

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                  •  Wow (none)
                    It sounds like you have a lot of experience in the matter.  The bill is very scary on its face, definitely.

                    Here is a summary of the case I was referring to in the comment above: http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-767.ZS.html

                    In that case, the same Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 which is at issue here was under review.  At issue in the case was whether the Act precluding review of detentions.  The Supreme Court held that no, there was no way any act by Congress, not even this one which explicity precluded judicial review, could suspend federal habeas corpus.  It is notworthy to point out that the language at issue in that case was almost exactly the same as the language at issue with HR 418 ("notwithstanding any other provision of law, no court shall have jurisdiction...")

                    Thus, according to that case (and it is a 2001 case, so it's quite recent) any detention pursuant to the discretion of the executive official must still be reviewable because of the Suspension Clause of the Constitution.

                    It's a very interesting case, and provides some helpful context for this bill.

                    If the people lead, the leaders will follow.

                    by Georgia Logothetis on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 02:13:08 PM PST

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                    •  Thanks, I will look at that (none)
                      and given that it is from my school, I am doubly impressed (Cornell)

                      "Optimism is not for sissies." (an elderly man at the Progressive Dem Conference)

                      by Percheronwoman on Wed Feb 09, 2005 at 11:01:54 PM PST

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