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View Diary: Rutgers paper exploits gay suicide to push do-nothing agenda (161 comments)

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  •  Then you would be wrong. (7+ / 0-)

    For the record, I don't think what happenned to Tyler Clementi was a hate crime.  

    Unless, of course, you can provide a link to a heterosexual sexual encounter that the roommate and his female friend secretly recorded and uploaded to the Internet.

    Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

    by gooderservice on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 08:39:53 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Um, let me ask you something (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      buddabelly

      would posting a heterosexual sex encounter on the internet be a hate crime if the person in that encounter committed suicide?

      •  I'll ask you something. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BlackSheep1, m00finsan

        Maybe you can correct me, and then I would rethink this.

        How many heterosexuals have been secretly taped during a sexual encounter, which then ended up on the Internet, and one or both of the participants killed themselves?

        If you know of anyone that happened to, I would like to know about it.  But even if it did happen, what were the circumstances?  Were they different than what happened here?

        Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

        by gooderservice on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 08:48:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for not answering my question (0+ / 0-)

          Is there a prosecutable crime for invasion of privacy?  I'm sure there is.  Is there a prosecutable crime for harassment?  I'm sure there is.  I'm sure there are enough ordinances and statutes to convict these kids for what they did.  Their behavior is beyond the pale atrocious (if they put a video of this kid on the internet.....I'm not sure that they did that).  

          I don't know how many sexual encounters have been secretly recorded and wound up on the internet.  The point is, how can it be a hate crime to secretly tape a gay sex encounter but not a hate crime to secretly tape a straight sex encounter?  

          •  I can't help you if you don't understand (0+ / 0-)

            the difference.  I don't mean to be condescending, but I have nothing else to add.

            The point is, how can it be a hate crime to secretly tape a gay sex encounter but not a hate crime to secretly tape a straight sex encounter?  

            Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

            by gooderservice on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:07:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There is no difference (0+ / 0-)

              There is no real or substantial difference between gay people and straight people.  Yes, sexual orientation is an inherent character trait that is fundamental to one's person.  But that's true of EVERYONE.  Not just gays, not just straights.  

              To say that secretly videotaping gay sex is somehow worse than secretly videotaping straight sex is to further discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and continue the second class citizenship of all gay and lesbian citizens.  Frankly, secretly videotaping ANY kind of sex....whether it is gay or straight is a bad and improper thing.  It should be criminal.  But the act of filming one kind should not make it a hate crime over the act of filming another.

              Goodnight.  

              •  At some time in the future, yes. (0+ / 0-)

                Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

                by gooderservice on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:49:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Not so. (7+ / 0-)

                You're missing the point entirely.  What makes something a hate crime is the presence of the requisite intent.  That is, the perpetrator has to be motivated by hatred or bias against the group of which the victim is a member.  In this case, the victim was gay, and it appears the perpetrators were motivated by antigay bias.  Hence, a hate crime.

                Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

                by FogCityJohn on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:51:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes I understand that (0+ / 0-)

                  But what is being suggested here is that because the victim was gay, the intent is automatically established to make it a hate crime.  This is not so.  

                  •  True (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gooderservice

                    but I think there is some evidence to suggest it in the published reports.  Obviously, we will all have to await the outcome of the criminal investigation.

                    Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

                    by FogCityJohn on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 08:52:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm sure (0+ / 0-)

                      From what I've seen thus far, I only see identification of Clementi as gay.  That, in and of itself, does not constitute evidence of anti-gay bias.  If identifying someone's sexual orientation can be considered motivation of bias, I think that you could charge every single person in the United States with a hate crime.  Mere identification of sexual orientation, ANY sexual orientation, should not be the basis of charging a hate crime or enhancing a sentence of another crime.  

                      Obviously, we will all have to await the outcome of the criminal investigation.

                      We'll certainly have to wait for the report.  But if this is all they have thus far (the identification of Clementi as gay and the filming of him with another man.....who btw did not commit suicide), I shudder to think of the consequences of this.  

                      People want to rush to judgment on this issue because these kids did a bad thing.  But we shouldn't be in the business of treating gay people and straight people differently.  This happens enough without help from well intentioned but completely misguided liberals.  We should not be encouraging this.  

          •  No, SoCalLiberal, you got an answer: find a case (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Nowhere Man, gooderservice

            and show how else, other than the participants' gender, it differed from this one.

            No one has talked about the surviving person who was in Tyler Clementi's room that night. I'm certain that person hadn't given permission for the video / netcast either.

            I hope that person chooses to sue not just those thoughtless, cruel, homophobic young adults, but the institution that created an environment enabling them to do what they did. They killed an 18-year-old human being, a violinist, a sensitive and talented youngster.

            They literally drove him to do away with himself.
            Rutgers is at fault too. The environment the University encouraged made those two think they would be protected in their cruelty.

            LBJ & Lady Bird, Sully Sullenberger, Molly Ivins, Barbara Jordan, Ann Richards, Drew Brees: Texas is No Bush League! -7.50,-5.59

            by BlackSheep1 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 10:15:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Because straight people aren't discriminated.... (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            homogenius, Ordvefa, Ellid, susanala

            ....against for being straight, you dumb shit.

            •  Well (0+ / 0-)
              1.  That's not entirely true.
              1.  That's irrelevant.
              1.  If you are proposing to treat a crime against a gay person one way and the exact same crime against a straight person in another way....that is discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.  That is akin to saying that committing a crime against a black person should be punished worse than committing the same crime against a white person.  That is discrimination on the basis of race.
      •  If the posting of that video... (8+ / 0-)

        ...was done to attack the heterosexual community, yes.  A crime is a hate crime if it targets not just an individual, but also targets a group of which to which that individual belongs.  Hate crimes against gay people aren't about just harming the individual, but also telling the entire local gay community that they would be hit with the attack too if the perpetrator could do so.  It's about making all the other gay people in that community know that they're not safe there.

        Get back to me when being heterosexual is equally reviled and attacked.

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