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View Diary: Rutgers paper exploits gay suicide to push do-nothing agenda (161 comments)

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  •  Unless things have changed a lot (7+ / 0-)

    and I mean changed radically since I was there, this will not go over well at all.  The school is known for its diversity and tolerance, or at least it was.

    I'd like to read the other editorials that have been running since Tyler's suicide.

    I wonder if this was some attempt at being "fair and balanced."  I also wonder if people will find out who wrote it.

    Disclosure: I'm working as an unpaid citizen journalist covering the Sestak campaign/ PA Sen. race for Huffington Post's "Eyes and Ears 2010" project

    by joanneleon on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 08:47:44 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  This isn't directed at you. (5+ / 0-)

      I trust that you know that.  

      The school is known for its diversity and tolerance, or at least it was.

      "Tolerance."  The very second that the word "tolerance" enters the discussion, that implies that someone is "different" from us but we're being nice about it and are willing to accept them.  Ain't we nice.

      I cringe every time I hear the word "tolerance" related to X group of people.

      I'm probably the worst writer here at DKos, I know that others could better express what I'm trying to, but why in the hell would the word "tolerance" be invoked towards any human being.

      Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

      by gooderservice on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 08:56:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm happy to use a different word (4+ / 0-)

        if it's offensive.  "Tolerance" is just a word that I've seen used to describe people who don't discriminate, aren't bigots, and that's how it was meant.

        What word should I have used in place of "tolerance?"  I'll be happy to change the language.

        Sometimes it's very frustrating to try to figure out how to say something positive toward a group of people that you support when you're not sure what words might offend, when no offense was meant.

        Disclosure: I'm working as an unpaid citizen journalist covering the Sestak campaign/ PA Sen. race for Huffington Post's "Eyes and Ears 2010" project

        by joanneleon on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:28:53 PM PDT

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        •  No offense taken (6+ / 0-)

          At least not by me.  I think perhaps "acceptance" might be a better word.  I'm not asking American society to "tolerate" the fact that I'm gay.  I'm asking American society to "accept" the fact that I'm gay and to "accept" me as a fully equal citizen.

          Maladie d'Amour, Où l'on meurt d'Aimer, Seul et sans Amour, Sid'abandonné

          by FogCityJohn on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 10:00:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I know that tolerance is used a lot and appears (0+ / 0-)

          to be an accepted word.

          The school is known for its diversity and tolerance

          I would say embraces diversity, period.  That implies everyone is different and equal.

          I hope you understand that I was not singling you out using the word tolerance.  I might tolerate a loud mouth in a bar, for instance, because they're a friend of a friend.  I would tolerate their behavior for a particular reason, but embrace their diversity if they were "not like me."

          Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

          by gooderservice on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 04:04:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That's a thought I've had for a long time myself (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nowhere Man, gooderservice

        and don't often try to put into words. But I do think it needs to be put out there, in just the way you did.

        People may wind up turning the point into a war over semantics or whose connotation of the word in today's society is correct, but I do believe that using the word "tolerance" does imply that we're doing something because we have to or just trying to be polite, but we don't necessarily believe that the people we're "tolerating" are actual equals to the rest of us and we're only treating them that way because everyone else says we should.

        I do prefer to frame the arguments, whenever possible, in terms of equality (treating someone else as an equal instead of just showing them some "tolerance," for example). I think that it makes the point clearer than telling others that they need to be "tolerant" of us.

        And, after all, that's really what it comes down to: in a free society, whether someone agrees with my views or my lifestyle or whatever, I'm still entitled to be treated as an equal to everyone else, and to do otherwise, not only infringes upon my rights and puts their rights above mine, but is also un-American and goes against the very founding principles of this country.

        Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

        by JWSwift on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 09:38:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Definition (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PsychoSavannah, RoCali

          Tolerance

          –noun
          1.
          a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
          2.
          a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
          3.
          interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

          The word "tolerance" isn't usually used in that way -- that you "tolerate" something, despite the root of the word.

          Disclosure: I'm working as an unpaid citizen journalist covering the Sestak campaign/ PA Sen. race for Huffington Post's "Eyes and Ears 2010" project

          by joanneleon on Mon Oct 11, 2010 at 10:09:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just posted the same below (0+ / 0-)

            It is the word to use.

            "Acceptance" will never be truly gained by members of the huge religions that dominate the globe.  Unless those religious teachings change drastically, tolerance is the best we can hope for.  Considering most have been around for thousands of years, I'm not holding my breath.

            •  No, many people will never "accept" gays. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gooderservice

              Nor should we expect them to. That borders on telling people what they should think. (We have Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck around for the purpose of TELLING people what they should think.)

              I'm aware of the textbook definition of the word and how according to that definition, it's technically the right word to use. However, as the previous person had indicated, many people have a somewhat different connotation to the word and think that it means that they need to accommodate or do a favor to others by "tolerating" them, almost as if they're being magnanimous by NOT beating the shit out of a gay person.

              When you come at it from the other direction, with the assertion that (as is a founding principle of our country and a bedrock value that our individual liberties and freedoms are based upon) EVERY OTHER PERSON in the country is an equal to you, whether you like them or not, whether you approve of their religion or not, whether you think they're going to hell or not, or whatever, then there is no need to "tolerate" anything--you already "get" that that person standing next to you is supposed to be your equal and you should be treating them as such. Doesn't mean that you have to accept them or like them or approve of them, but they're an equal, nevertheless. Someone who you recognize and accept as your equal, you're naturally going to treat them as an equal. The way that many people view the word "tolerance" means that they're not seeing the other person as their equal, and therefore they're going to "tolerate" the existence of the other person.

              Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

              by JWSwift on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 02:02:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't care what people THINK a word (0+ / 0-)

                means.  It has a definition....one that's been around for a very long time.  And it is the absolutely appropriate word to use for the policies in place in most schools and many workplaces.

                •  No need for a hissy fit. (0+ / 0-)

                  You do what you think is right, and I'll go my way.

                  So much for trying to find common ground or a better way to reach people and have them understand our issues.

                  Never has so much been taken from so many by so few for so long...

                  by JWSwift on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 03:17:55 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  I Don't Think It's About Tolerating the People (0+ / 0-)

        I think it's about tolerating the differences.  Also, instead of thinking deeply about the word "Tolerance," think about "Intolerance" then think of the opposite.

        For example, I "Tolerate" Christianity in people.  It's because they are different from me, and I am willing to accept them.  But if they start talking about it I'll tell them, "Sorry, not for me, but you take care now."

        If I start talking to people about how gay I am, and they have the same attitude, I'm fine with that.

        Dear Wall Street: If you want to stop feeling like a piñata, stop stuffing yourself with our f#@$ing candy.

        by TooFolkGR on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 04:16:12 AM PDT

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      •  Good point (0+ / 0-)

        You tolerate a piece of shit that some dog left on the sidewalk. I prefer the term "understanding" or, perhaps "compassion" or maybe "human decency." "Tolerance" is what European rulers showed Jews when they allowed Jews to settle their countries, but live under restrictive laws and made sure the Jews would raise a lot of money for the crown. Tolerance is way different from a real appreciation and celebration of our differences and similarities as members of homo sapiens sapiens.

      •  It's exactly the word that should (0+ / 0-)

        be used:

        tol·er·ance   /ˈtɒlərəns/  Show Spelled
        [tol-er-uhns]  Show IPA

        –noun

        1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
        1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
        1. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.
        1. the act or capacity of enduring; endurance: My tolerance of noise is limited.
        1. Medicine/Medical,  Immunology .

          a. the power of enduring or resisting the action of a drug, poison, etc.: a tolerance to antibiotics.
          b. the lack of or low levels of immune response to transplanted tissue or other foreign substance that is normally immunogenic.

        1. Machinery .

          a. the permissible range of variation in a dimension of an object. Compare allowance (def. 8 ) .
          b. the permissible variation of an object or objects in some characteristic such as hardness, weight, or quantity.

        1. Also called allowance. Coining . a permissible deviation in the fineness and weight of coin, owing to the difficulty of securing exact conformity to the standard prescribed by law.
        •  I don't "permit" anyone to be who they are. (0+ / 0-)

          a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.

          I embrace their diversity.

          Enough already. Stand up and fight. If you lose, you lose, but at least you tried. That's all I ask.

          by gooderservice on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 04:07:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I know exactly what you mean. (0+ / 0-)

        The word "tolerance" carries a certain connotation.

        Sort of: "You are a digusting and vile to me, but I'll go ahead and allow you to exist."

        I know that it is never intended in that way, but that connotation seems inherent to me.

        "Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." - Robert G. Ingersoll

        by Apost8 on Tue Oct 12, 2010 at 07:32:55 AM PDT

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    •  I agree with you (1+ / 0-)

      Granted it's been a few years, but in my days diversity was one of the things I loved the most about Rutgers.

      And I'm glad to see the response in the comments to that editorial.

      But also as someone who was present for some of Targum's editorial meetings when I worked there - editorials aren't meant to be "fair and balanced."  It's where you see the true nature of the editorial board.

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