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View Diary: Outsourcing Torture: Secret History (FBI v. CIA) (42 comments)

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  •  Torture=Insecurity (4.00)
    Excellent Diary!  I am amazed how anyone could possibly think torture results in reliable information?  Any information given under painful circumstances would be questionable at best.  

    Ever try to get your kids to rat out his friends?  Oh jeese, forget it if you threaten, yell, or intimidate, make them sit in a corner.  

    If you sit them down and explain how it is in their best interest, even for their friends that you know everything, and make them a PARTNER in exposing the misdeads, then it always works  like a charm.  Believe me, I have four kids.  (little terrors)

    •  OTOH, if your aim is perpetual war, (4.00)
      what better way to inflame your intended enemies than to torture some of them?
      •  Another possibility (4.00)
        that has occurred to me is that perhaps, just perhaps, some of the  Guantanamo prisoners and likely others elsewhere are actually being made psychotic on purpose:

        i.e. the CIA is breeding by means of extreme torture and isolation a group of mind-controlled assassins. I know, I know, it sounds completely nuts, but the CIA has admitted to attempting psychological "experiments" in the past like MKULTRA in the 1960s, etc.

        If as the following LA Times article (from 2002) suggests that in fact many were held who were not terrorists, perhaps again that was not a mistake.,0,2294365.story

        It's not as if the identities of the CIA "ghost prisoners" (see my diary on this subject) have all been revealed....

        Anyway, I digress. My only point is that some of this torture may not be strictly for interrogation purposes: there could be some medical and psychological "experimentation" going on in addition to interrogation, and which has as its ends not to get information but simply to have a home-made group of brainwashed "CIA Assets" to use as needed. Too paranoid? Maybe, maybe not.

        •  Terrorist training camps (none)
          If you wanted to create whole new generations of terrorists, you'd be hard pressed to find a better way than this administration has.  If they are just incompetent or cruel, and I have no doubt they are both, that still would not explain the continued use of torture.  
        •  Precisely (4.00)

          The famed civil rights attorney Gareth Pierce (UK)agrees with you that it's an experiment:

          Of course, we have not seen anything like this before. It's absolutely breathtaking, audacious, unlawful kidnapping of vast numbers of people, simply not caring that it is tantamount to shredding up every international treaty obligation which all of our countries have subscribed to.

          What I see it as, is an experiment, an experiment by America to see what interrogative methodology it could use and obtain results in disregard completely of the fact that this -- Well, consciously, in fact, knowing that it was using prohibited methods. An experiment to see what you could get (disregarding the fact that experience tells us it must be nonsense what you get from coercive interrogation), but also an experiment in testing reaction internationally and nationally. Will there be protest? Have we gone too far?

          And tragically, the answer probably is the experiment's successful.

          There has not been world revulsion expressed that has compelled the United States to back down. ...

          "EXCLUSIVE: British Human Rights Lawyer Gareth Peirce Says Torture "Is the Recipe for the Destruction" of International Human Rights," Democracy Now! transcript, Feb. 1, 2005

          Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

          by SusanHu on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 09:32:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Speaking of UK, have you seen this? (none)
            Article from the Guardian about possible involvement of British intelligence in sending one of their citizens to Gitmo:

            The disclosure that British intelligence was instrumental in consigning Mubanga to Guantanamo raises serious questions about the consistency of British policy towards the controversial US camp. In public, ministers, led by Lord Goldsmith, the Attorney-General, negotiated for months with the Pentagon for the release of British detainees.

            Mubanga's solicitor, Louise Christian, said yesterday that she planned to take legal action against the government. His arrest, detention and transfer had clearly breached British, Zambian and international law, she said. 'We are hoping to issue proceedings for the misfeasance of officials who colluded with the Americans in effectively kidnapping him and taking him to Guantanamo.'

            Mubanga, a former motorcycle courier, says he went to Afghanistan at the end of 2001 to study Islam. He was never, he insists, a sympathiser with al-Qaeda, and he condemned the 9/11 attacks. 'I do not approve of the killing of innocent men, women and children,' he said.

            He says he fled to Pakistan after the beginning of the war against the Taliban, but says that someone stole his passport. A dual British-Zambian national, he phoned his family from Karachi and asked them to post him his Zambian passport. He says he used this in February 2002 to go to Zambia, where he was joined by his sister and stayed with other relatives.

            However, on 2 March the Sunday Times claimed Mubanga had been arrested in Afghanistan, fighting with the Taliban - presumably this referred to the man who stole or was handed his passport. Soon afterwards, he was seized by Zambian security men.

            He was held in a series of guarded motels, where he was interrogated for days by a female American official and a Briton who called himself Martin and said he worked for MI6. 'Martin' produced Mubanga's British passport, together with a list of Jewish organisations in New York and a military training manual that he claimed Mubanga had handwritten. They had been found with the passport in a cave in Afghanistan, he said. Mubanga pointed out that his handwriting was nothing like that in the manual, and said he had never seen the documents before, or been to any caves.

            A few days later, Mubanga was loaded on to a plane by men in balaclavas and flown to Guantanamo. For more than two years, the claims made by the MI6 man - that he had been on a mission to reconnoitre targets in New York and had travelled to Zambia on false documents - were the main grounds for his detention.

            And the denial of any involvement of MI6 by the home secretary here:

            The home secretary came under fire yesterday after refusing to investigate claims that MI6 played a crucial role in the "kidnap" of a Briton who spent 33 months at Guantánamo Bay.

            Charles Clarke said he was not going to order an investigation into an allegation by Martin Mubanga that he was interrogated by a British intelligence official before he was transported to Guantánamo...

            ...Asked about the interview on BBC's Breakfast with Frost, Mr Clarke said: "I think that media discussion about the precise conditions that arose out of people going to Guantánamo Bay or not are not really particularly well informed. And I include the article that is in the paper today."

            He added: "I'm all in favour of human rights, but I'm even more in favour of our national security being protected. I'm not organising a specific investigation into it, no."

            "It is no longer a choice, my friends, between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence." Martin Luther King, Jr.

            by grannyhelen on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 11:40:09 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  To wit (none)
      Gitmo detainees say they gave false confessions to halt abuse

      Associated Press Writer

      [Paisley Dodds is coming out with the best stories on Gitmo -- see one of my earlier diaries based on her story about sexual humiliation of detainees.]

      Nearly a dozen detainees at the Guantanamo Bay prison camp contend they were wrongly imprisoned after repeated abuse by U.S. troops in Afghanistan and Pakistan, including beatings with chains, electric shock and sodomy, their lawyer said Monday.
      "These are classic stories of men who ended up in Guantanamo by mistake," charged attorney Tom Wilner, who represents 11 Kuwaiti prisoners held in the detention center at the U.S. Navy base in eastern Cuba.

      Most of his clients say they falsely confessed to belonging to Afghanistan's ousted Taliban regime or the al-Qaida terror network as a way to stop the abuse, Wilner said. He said one is too angry over his treatment to discuss details of his case, but all argue their detentions are unjustified. ...

      Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

      by SusanHu on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 08:58:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Torture convinces the Bushies (none)
      that they are butch. Interrogation (and the rule of law) are for wimps.

      America is a broken promise, and we are called to do what we can to fix it. -- Bill Moyers

      by janinsanfran on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 10:26:24 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, it's more than butch... (none)
        Football players are butch.  These are skinny little guys who wear leather.  They're sadists.  They're not butch.

        Of course he's written in the Lamb's Book of Life. He's the Antagonist.

        by ultrageek on Tue Feb 08, 2005 at 02:13:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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