Skip to main content

View Diary: RKBA:The illogic of safe gun ownership. (308 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  In many places (7+ / 0-)

    in the mostly rural west where I've lived and/or visited, it's legal to wear your gun visibly like in the days of the old gunslinger westerns. And most people outside big cities don't think much about it.

    And most (or all, I can't recall an exception but there may be one or two) drinking establishments also use the old gunslinger rules and insist that guns be checked at the door. I should think it would be perfectly legal for a bar to instill a 'no guns' rule regardless of what state law or local statutes allow, given their extra liability issues these days. Including being liable if a customer drives home drunk and gets into a wreck (which allows bartenders to refuse service if they think a customer is getting too drunk).

    Though they couldn't disarm on-duty police, and concealed weapons might go unchecked.

    Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

    by Joieau on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 08:01:42 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  While I'd agree, aren't you making the (8+ / 0-)

      argument that businesses being private property, that they can control what and whom they allow in or serve?

      •  Not really. Most places (6+ / 0-)

        of business - including grocery stores, 5&dimes and all restaurants have sig-lettered signs on the doors that read:

        "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service."

        It's certainly not illegal most places to go shirtless or shoeless. But if you do, you can't go shopping.

        Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

        by Joieau on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 08:36:26 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  what's wrong with that? (7+ / 0-)

        aren't you making the argument that businesses being private property, that they can control what and whom they allow in or serve?

        I support property owners rights to ban my firearm.  I also support my right to take my money elsewhere.

        There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

        by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 08:54:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's my guess that (6+ / 0-)

          gerrilea is referring to the possibility of reverting back to excluding people based on race or gender.

          Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

          by oldpunk on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:02:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  again, so what's wrong with that? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea, oldpunk

            Any business that does so in the modern day and age will be boycotted into bankruptcy in short order.  It's a self-correcting problem.

            Would you give such a business your hard earned greenbacks?  I know I wouldn't.

            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:16:20 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What's wrong with that? (6+ / 0-)

              There are others who would patronize said establishment because it's racist or sexist.

              And in the days of megacorporations and the lack of power unions have, I'm not holding my breath.

              (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:18:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I understand your position. (7+ / 0-)

              And I too would like to see fewer regulations but there is value to having anti-discrimination laws.  Let me share an analogy.

              If you plant a tree and tie the top of it down so it bows to the ground, after a while when you remove the rope the tree will stay bowed toward the ground.  In order to get the tree to stand upright it will be necessary to force the tree to bow the other direction.  Then after more time when the rope is removed the tree will stand upright.

              The laws we have that prevent discrimination based on race are helping us as a nation stand upright.  Will we ever be able to eliminate those laws?  Only time will tell.

              Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

              by oldpunk on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:28:07 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Excuse me? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buddabelly, oldpunk, KVoimakas

              My entire point was specific to liability concerns for the business. Bars have liability issues other businesses don't have. Grocery and drug stores, department stores, malls, restaurants and any other business in any mall, strip mall or Main Street anywhere also has liability issues. That's where the no shoes come in. And the no shirt is about basic covering for public sensibilities so the everyday business doesn't go elsewhere. That's a profit issue.

              Discrimination for skin color, hair color, eye color, height, weight, physical ability, etc. is not allowed to businesses open to the public. Private clubs can be as asshole-ish as they like.

              Now, more than ever, we need the Jedi.

              by Joieau on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 07:37:44 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  That's the argument that's been claimed (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            oldpunk, theatre goon

            against Rand Paul's positions.  Now, be clear here, I don't support him, but he was saying the same thing.  I watched an interview, I think it was CNN, where they were trying to paint him as a racist.  But what I got from what he said was that if it's your property you can do with it as you wish, sort of.

            This is a very touchy subject these days. And there are many perspectives on what is morally wrong vs what is legally wrong or even lawful.

            The "No shoe, No shirt, No service", while it may be sound public health policy, is it not discriminatory against the poor, destitute and homeless?

            While I actually agree with the idea that if I own a bar or restaurant or business, that I could refuse service to anyone I don't wish to be there or control the behavior of the public while they are in my establishment.  

            But our system is not like that today. So, when you refuse someone based on their exercising of an unalienable right, is it not discriminatory?

            You see, I hold the position that my rights end where yours begin.  Most Americans don't see or understand this simple fact.

            If they don't like my standards they can shop elsewhere. But I could probably write an entire diary on this subject that surely would get donuts and most likely get me banned.  

            There's a dichotomy and inconsistency, imho, with our laws and our constitution.

            •  They have a right to not be discriminated (5+ / 0-)

              against.

              Your right to discriminate based on whatever facet of their being would mean you're impacting on their rights.

              (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:29:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, I agree...by our created government. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Crookshanks

                Crookshanks position is what I see as an equalizing force.  Let the racists serve whom they want and let's see how long they stay in business.

                While I would welcome almost anyone into my theoretical business because I want to be successful, I find tattoos and facial piercing vulgar, but I wouldn't refuse them service because of it.

                I also agree the anti-discrimination laws have done both bad and good.  They've galvanized many into becoming more racist. And on the other hand, it has shown us that we truly aren't any less human than the next person.

                •  ? nt (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gerrilea, rockhound

                  (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:01:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My rights end where yours begin (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    oldpunk, Crookshanks, KVoimakas

                    Your rights end where mine begin.  

                    Our constitution was designed to create a government that would not discriminate, it took the 13th and 14th amendments to reach the ideal encapsulated in the Declaration of Independence, that all men are created equal then the 19th amendment for it to include women. But you know these things already.

                    The "separate but equal" doctrine was destroyed, as it should have been but it's based on the idea that our government cannot and must not do these things.

                    Not being discriminated against by our government.  The individual citizen that discriminates, while I loathe the idea even, it's their right is it not?

                    To believe what they so desire? How are they actually hurting someone else if that injured victim can always go elsewhere?  They haven't been stopped from eating, working or even living.

                    This is the beginning of the Authoritarian mentality that has swept this nation.  IMHO.

                    •  No, it's not their right. (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                      I believe many things. I believe that I should be able to shoot the rapist who forced himself on a friend of mine (repeat this twice over; I know of two.)

                      My belief system does inflict harm (or would, on those two guys.)

                      So does the idea that they can go elsewhere. That's not always true and that's still wrong. Isn't that nothing but an extension of separate but equal?

                      (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:29:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It can be, yes. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        oldpunk, Crookshanks

                        But separate but equal was about what and how our government acted. Two difference venues or areas, private vs. public.

                        We are already getting back to that abolished doctrine by these "charter schools" and "school vouchers".  When my tax dollars are used to send a person to a private religious school.  I have a problem. Is not the government then supporting religion? The tax exemptions are another sore spot.

                        Does/do the anti's beliefs hurt you? They can believe I'm a crazy, unstable penis worshiper, that's ready to blow (pun intended) my marbles and start on a killing rampage, all they want.  It doesn't make it true or infringe upon my rights.  But when they get laws or statutes passed that curtail my rights based on those opinions, they've crossed a line.  Have they not?

                    •  lets say the only pharmacist in many miles is a (6+ / 0-)

                      fundy extremist and refuses to sell the pill to single women or the morning after pill to anyone....

                      This has happened here in the midwest...By exercising his "right" to discriminate, he has most definitely impacted on the woman's rights......

                      It's the same imo, 99% of business are a public accommodation in addition to being a business......

                      "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                      by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:34:49 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What about his right to practice his religious (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        oldpunk, Crookshanks

                        beliefs?  Where do we draw these lines?  So, we cannot have religious based businesses now?

                        Remember the Boy Scouts were granted the right to practice their beliefs when hiring a gay person.  Clearly they deny many qualified applicants from consideration for employment but the idea still stands.

                        The government can't discriminate...private individuals are not bound by the constitution.

                        The constitution is what binds our government.

                        •  When he entered the public sphere, as a business (5+ / 0-)

                          open to the public, he forsook many of his rights.

                          (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:55:46 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  How is this constitutional? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldpunk, Crookshanks

                            If I go into business, I must give up my unalienable right to practice my religious beliefs, while in my daily life? I can't actually practice my beliefs then can I? Or must that unalienable right be neutered and controlled that you can only practice your faith on this day at this time and only at this location?

                            I seriously don't see a difference between the 1st and the 2nd amendments here.

                            It's the authoritarian mentality that the government is obligated to form, shape and control what every individual believes, thinks and does in our society, for the sake of society.

                            I firmly believe that society has no rights, that the individual that comprises society does.

                          •  asdf (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly

                            It's the authoritarian mentality that the government is obligated to form, shape and control what every individual believes, thinks and does in our society, for the sake of society.

                            I don't want to impact beliefs.
                            I don't want to impact thinking.
                            I want the government to ensure our rights aren't infringed by fellow citizens (just like the Constitution is supposed to protect our rights from the government.) In this case, I think that your property right is trumped.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:21:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  the only way a fellow citizen can infringe your (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, oldpunk

                            rights is through assaults on the person (kidnapping/rape/assault/murder) that have always been illegal.

                            Any other association between individuals is voluntary and can be terminated by one or both participants at their leisure.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:24:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  bull refusal to serve in the situation I laid out (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, rockhound, oldpunk, KVoimakas

                            could cause death....

                            We went through this in the 60's guys.....

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 12:41:59 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  so what? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            Refusal to do any number of things could theoretically cause someone's death.

                            The question to my mind is whether or not the state should be in the business of forcing citizens to associate with one another.  I don't think it should be.

                            Besides, one can make a case for why it's worse for your hypothetical woman to compel her Doctor/pharmacist to write/fill that prescription.  Would you rather that she do business with someone opposed to her life choices whom may not give her all the facts about those choices or would you rather that she seek out a less biased source of information?

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 01:46:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  really dude you're sounding like David Duke and (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas

                            honestly I find it embarrassing......

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 05:55:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  time to play the racism card then is it? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 08:15:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you are arguing for the right to discriminate (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas

                            If that's not a racist/classist/sexist/whatever ist position then enlighten me....

                            Under civil rights law it is plain that discrimination based on color creed race religion are all incompatible with our ideals as a country...and hopefully soon sexual orientation

                            A public accommodation flat does not have the right to discriminate no matter how much the right to free association is invoked....

                            If you are having a barbecue, you most definitely have the right to invite anyone you like....If on the other hand, you sell that barbecue to the public, then you have crossed the line to public accommodation  and your right to chose association, your customers, is limited by civil rights law and for a very good reason.....

                            Allowing discrimination and saying the marketplace will stop it is not reality.  The only thing that has ever stopped discrimination is civil rights law.....and to this day it's a fight.  There are regular studies that show people with "Black sounding" names get less job interviews even with identical resumes and are still to this day discriminated against in housing, medical care and other areas......

                            Back to my og statement about the fundy pharmacist, If they are not able to treat all equally while doing their job while leaving their religion and prejudices behind, then they are in the wrong business......

                            And in many areas, they might be the only option for many miles...Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to up and go somewhere else...Like myself now, I've been stuck here for 3 weeks with every car broken....If the local store decided they weren't going to serve my hippie ass as I don't fit in their religious beliefs then they have caused harm and possibly grave physical harm......

                            That's what the civil rights movement was about and the fight continues to this day....It's not a post anything society by any stretch and without the law as it sits, we would be in the jim crow days again within a year.....

                            Our ideal is that all men are created equal....unfortunately this requires the force of law as we are a multi ist society....and I don't see that changing soon.....

                            This is why the entire set of amendments need to be incorporated against the states under P&I where it belongs....As Americans we have certain privileges and immunities and one of those is that public accommodations are not allowed to discriminate.....

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:16:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm arguing for the right of free association (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            Nothing more, nothing less.

                            You have a depressing view of the United States if you think we'd be back to Jim Crow in a year without forced association.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:31:33 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you have the right to free association all you (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas

                            want in your personal life. So do I , so does everyone....

                            When in business you are a public accommodation and as such, you have a limited ability to refuse service....

                            Maybe New York has managed to kill off most racism/any ism....but I doubt it....There are still many many people who would love a return to segregation whether by force of law or through the application of Free Association to segregate their business.....The thought of seeing whites only signs again in this country makes me ill....and it would happen if the Federal Civil Rights laws weren't enforced......

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:40:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But aren't we then getting into contract law? (0+ / 0-)

                            Don't I have the right to chose with whom I make contracts? There's an implied contract that if I manufacture then sell a product that it will work as described and promoted and that it will be safe if used as intended and now (as directed).

                            Please see my post on how I could not protect my Store against the pilferage of school students here.

                            The idea of segregation from a moral perspective, I have to agree, it shouldn't be allowed.  And I'm grateful that there are laws that make the behavior illegal.

                            But aren't we going overboard with this? Soon, every person in America will be considered a "protected class." We'll all be designated as victims.  A society based on "I'm a victim" and the mentality that "you owe me."

                            While sadly I agree with your point that many would love to return to segregation, and it reared its ugly head as a corporate manager for Uni-Mart, LLC out of PA. My field supervisor never actually told me not to hire black people, but he made it very clear he didn't want them working for the company by saying: "They don't fit the image of our Company." Out of the 154 Store Managers, not one of them was black and in all the stores I ever visited, I never saw a black employee, except in my Store.

                            And I'm stopping now, because, again, this could be flushed out in a separate diary that many would not like to hear or read.

                            Back to my point on how this relates to guns, haven't we argued that gun control is so many things and that we can't legislate morality?

                            How do we reconcile these clearly two opposing views, the unalienable right to practice and live ones faith and the "right to buy", which by the way, I've never read that part in the constitution.

                            If I had an open carry license and I was doing so in my own business and a customer comes in and gets offended because they have a faith of strict non-violence, who's rights prevail here?  From your stated perspective, I would then be obligated to remove and hide my firearm, correct?

                            We get into very dangerous waters here if this is allowed, imho.

                            Or what about Muslim women that wear their Burka's? If they wear one and I enter their establishment to do business, what if I'm offended? Do they have to remove it because they are "in the public domain"?

                            It could be used by our overzealous LEO to prevent them from exercising what is clearly a religious mandate for them, could it not?

                            Again, very dangerous waters we enter into.

                          •  actually no.... (0+ / 0-)

                            you have a limited ability to refuse service....

                            You can still refuse service for almost any reason you want other than the customer being a member of a protected class.

                            The thought of seeing whites only signs again in this country makes me ill

                            I would love to see it happen again.  Then I would know who the racists are and could ensure that my money is not going to them.  As I said in a different post, this is a self-correcting problem.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Thu Oct 28, 2010 at 08:02:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  With the fuckhead racists I deal with (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            up here in the UP, I'd say my point of view would be justified in certain areas.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:41:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There's sure a few here too, I'm lucky (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, KVoimakas

                            in that Tucson is much better than many for having a multicultural population with very few problems.

                            Some of the Phx area though whew but even here, I clicked into craigslist local rants and raves and thought I'd been redirected to fucking stormfront......They're here too...

                            Where I actually live is probably 60%+ hispanic, mostly Mexican and out here, everyone really just gets along....

                            There's been 29 houses in my neighborhood hit in the last 6 weeks...Worst part, the damn cops know who it is, they just haven't caught them for some reason....Typical nest of tweakers.....An old friend got hit yesterday...These scumbags are focusing on guns too, they cut open his safe and took everything including the ammunition.....

                            We haven't been able to leave the house unattended for quite a while now and it's really a pita.....

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:55:32 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How'd they cut into his safe? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, buddabelly

                            Did he actually have a vault safe or was it a wooden gun cabinet safe?

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:57:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  RSC rather than a real safe safe (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, KVoimakas

                            but these guys are bringing the tools to do the job because there have been those with very nice safes with the same results....and his was certainly better than mine..

                            Luckily, my "shed" is an 8x40 shipping container and then I keep them in another safe inside it....A safe in a safe but if they have torches, they can still get in.....

                            These scum bust in and just take everything and leave a person with literally nothing, down to the small kitchen .

                            I really hope the cops arrest these scum quick because if not, someone is going to get hurt....so far they do it in the daytime when no one is home but sooner or later, someone is going to catch them in the act....They're just hitting too hard and fast to not have it happen......

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:05:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Is this not the actual intent of laws? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldpunk, Crookshanks

                            To control, stop and/or modify behaviors of individuals within society?

                          •  Behaviors, yes. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, buddabelly

                            Thinking and attitudes, not so much.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:17:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your inalienable right to practice your religious (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            belief is impacting someone else.

                            So there's where your rights end (at the end of your nose.)

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:33:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Constitutionality: (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            1964 Civil Rights Act

                            Why is that Constitutional?

                            14th amendment, 15th amendment, and Article one (section 8) of the Constitution.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:37:31 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Using your assertion (and I'm not trying to (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            disparage it), Costco, being a membership (private) business, could discriminate, but Walmart, not requireing a membership, could not?

                            Or am I overthinking this?

                          •  Membership is open to the public. nt (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:37:59 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But there's plenty of SCOTUS decisions (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldpunk, KVoimakas

                            that say that membership in a private organization does not have to be open to all. It gets murkier when public funds or property are involved, but in the case at hand, I see no reason that Costco could not restrict membership to white Christians... or to left-handed bisexual dentists, for that matter. I might be wrong about that, though.

                            Like the right to be armed, the right to discriminate in private affairs is one of the questions that can give great insight into the degree to which a person would control his fellow man. For liberals, questions like these describe the threshold of authoritarianism, much as questions relating to sexual conduct or drugs do for conservatives.

                            While I abhor it, and consider it vile, I would not use the power of the State to prohibit it.

                            --Shannon

                            --Shannon

                            "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
                            "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

                            by Leftie Gunner on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 05:41:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  disagree completely, it is not authoritarian in (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas

                            any way to force a public accommodation to serve all with no prejudice...That's why jim crow is no more, separate but equal does not work in the real world....

                            Any public accommodation ie a pharmacy should be required to serve all.....not impose their religious beliefs on the public....

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 07:27:10 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Key sentence in your post (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas

                            "Like the right to be armed, the right to discriminate in private affairs"

                            Nothing mentioned here is a private affair.....

                            A person may associate with any one they like in Private Affairs.  

                            However, once you open your door to the public it's no longer a private affair and has become a public accommodation......Just like landlords can not refuse to rent to Mexicans, christians, muslims, whatever.....As a landlord they have crossed the line from private to public.......

                            Same reason the ADA is constitutional, it only affects public accommodations...No one can make you make your own house handicapped accessible they sure can make you do that in your gas station or whatever....

                            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:25:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  his religious beliefs have no bearing on my right (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          gerrilea, rockhound, oldpunk, KVoimakas

                          to health care, scientifically based healthcare, not voodoo.....

                          By "following his religion" he's causing harm to others....

                          As you say, your rights end at my nose.....

                          same applies to a restaurant who won't serve blacks or a golf club that won't admit women......

                          And imo the Boy Scout decision was a horrible one....What would say if the boyscouts wanted to keep out all mexicans?

                          "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                          by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:04:52 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Don't you always have the choice (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldpunk, Crookshanks

                            to move or go elsewhere?

                            Are you not now employing the same emotional arguments used against us and the 2nd amendment?

                            Look, I'm not saying it morally correct here to discriminate against anyone for any reason, religious or created. I think it's truly insane that we haven't evolved past these "ideals" yet.

                          •  No. You don't. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            That would be the republican argument for the states rights BS.

                            Don't like it? Move.

                            And it's not always an option. I can't move right now even though I'd like to. But since I'm a responsible person and pay my bills and support my family, I cannot.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:22:43 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  it's also a Democrat argument when gun control (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, oldpunk

                            comes up.....

                            That would be the republican argument for the states rights BS.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:25:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Which is a great argument to make sure (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            the BoR is incorporated against the states.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:27:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And neither could I, at the moment (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldpunk, Crookshanks, KVoimakas

                            But I wasn't thinking of States' rights vs. Federal Authority.

                            I see the simplest solution where by the government would be obligated to open up a public commissary.

                            As a Store Manager, I was informed that my limiting  of 2 students without parental supervision was "discriminatory."  

                            Even though I could show on tape, no less, that when a group or gang of them came into my store they would intentionally distract my cashiers while the others pilfered the store.

                            This happened almost every day, but I was not allowed to set up reasonable standards or precautions to protect my stores assets and inventory.

                            The only choice I had was to hire an armed security guard or work every shift of every day of every year. Neither of which were affordable or realistic.

                      •  no, he's made it more INCONVENIENT for that (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        gerrilea, oldpunk

                        woman to exercise her rights.  He has not denied her any rights.  Individuals can't deny you your rights, only the state can.  The difference between the two is that you aren't forced to associate with any particular individual, you ARE forced to associate with the state.

                        Even in this deep blue state (New York) it's still legal for a MD to refuse to proscribe or even talk about birth control with a patient if it runs afoul of their religious beliefs.  I wouldn't have believed this until my GF's GP refused to write her a new script for the patch and she complained to Albany only to get the brush off.

                        Tell me, were my GF's "rights" violated or was she simply inconvenienced by having to find another Doctor?

                        Tell me another thing, is it really in my GF's best interests to compel someone who is opposed to the notion of birth control to talk about it with her?  Might it just be possible that she'll get biased information as a result of this compulsion?

                        There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                        by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:22:55 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  It's in your GF's best interest to (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                          have the doctor write the RX even if he doesn't believe in that.

                          (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:29:18 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  no, it's in my GF's best interest to have a (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            candid discussion with an UNBIASED source about birth control.  Compelling someone who doesn't want to have that discussion does not ensure that the patients interests are being protected.

                            Suppose the method of birth control the patient is asking for isn't well suited to them because of their medical history.  Is the patient going to find this out or will the Doc just write the script to keep the state off his or her back without performing due diligence?

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:40:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  She doesn't want a conversation. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly

                            She wants an RX for a pill she's already taking.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:41:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  which may or may not still be suited to her... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            .... there's a reason why prescriptions have a limited number of refills.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:42:18 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because doctors need more money. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly

                            I have to bow out though. It's time to go to sleep. If I can't, I'll be on tomorrow of course and respond then.

                            I'm enjoying the conversation, even though I don't think we'll sway the other person.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:44:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  well, that's the cynical way of looking at it.... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, KVoimakas

                            ... something I can appreciate.  To an extent I agree with you but you can't deny the value in having a Doctor review your history before proscribing certain drugs.  That's particularly true for hormonal birth control with all the side effects and contraindications (high blood pressure, weight, etc.) that go along with it.

                            Catch some sleep, I'm not going anywhere :)

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:51:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I take prednisone. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            It's the only thing that keeps my Crohn's in check. But they give me shit every time I want a refill and want to do a colonoscopy all the god damn time.

                            That requires two days off from work for BOTH jobs, borrowing a car to drive for an hour and a 1/2 and finding a hotel room to stay in.

                            I just want my RX. I don't understand why they keep me on these other meds that don't fucking work and just give me restrictions and side effects.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:25:55 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't want either of you to persuade the other. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, Crookshanks, KVoimakas

                            There is no balance if we all believe the same thing.

                            Don't believe what the politicians do, don't believe what they say, all they want to do is fuck you and get fat on their pay.

                            by oldpunk on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 01:12:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  in some cases sure, in others they have made (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KVoimakas

                          it impossible for the person in question to receive medical treatment untainted by someone else's religious beliefs.....

                          Not everyone has the ability to just up and go find another Dr/Pharmacist.....whether that's due to location income, the need to hide it from abusive parents,....There are many possibilities where this type of discrimination can cause irreparable harm......

                          "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                          by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:29:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

              •  you have the right not to be discriminated (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea, oldpunk

                against by the organs of the state.  The state should not have the right to compel private property owners to behave in the same manner as the state must behave.

                If you can make the argument that a private property owner should have the right to exclude people who seek to carry weapons on his property (most of the people here would agree with that, no?) then I don't see why he can't exclude people for other reasons.  It's his property.

                I feel I'm being discriminated against when businesses put up "no guns" signs.  Should I run to the Government and complain about my rights or should I just take my money elsewhere?

                There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:13:55 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Disagreed. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                  I feel I'm being discriminated against when businesses put up "no guns" signs.  Should I run to the Government and complain about my rights or should I just take my money elsewhere?

                  Number 1.

                  While doing number 2.

                  (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                  by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:15:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  so you are ok with the notion of Government (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gerrilea, oldpunk

                    compelling property owners to admit those carrying weapons even if it is against their political/spiritual/what-have-you belief system?

                    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                    by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:16:37 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I am against businesses (and other entities) (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                      discriminating against people based on characteristics that don't have a public health reason (exceptions for communicable disease and similar issues) but are arbitrarily decided on by the guy who runs the place.

                      (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                      by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:18:39 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  so you are against restaurants with dress codes? (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        gerrilea, oldpunk, KVoimakas

                        There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                        by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:19:15 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yep. (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                          I hate dress codes.

                          (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                          by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:23:58 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  then why not solve it by not giving your money (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, oldpunk

                            to the restaurant in question instead of using the state to impose your will upon them?

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:25:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            But just because I can solve it by going elsewhere doesn't mean that everyone has that option. Yes, I know we're talking about restaurants, but that's not the only thing this applies to. And THAT'S the issue I have.

                            You live in a small town. You can't move. The one store you can visit to get things immediately says go fuck yourself because you're __________.

                            The choice to not spend your money there is made for you. And you're screwed.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:27:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no, you aren't "screwed".... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, oldpunk

                            ... you are inconvenienced.  Just as you would be if that "one store" didn't have the item that you needed and you wind up having to visit another store that's further away.

                            I get what you are saying but I still don't regard it as justification for compelling people to associate under penalty of law.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:43:24 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, I'm screwed. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            Look at buddabelly's example. It might be a life saving inhaler. It might be a privately run hospital that is the only one within miles. It could be....a multitude of things.

                            As a business owner, you give up your right to not associate with potential customers based on arbitrary items.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:48:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Here's a different way to look at it. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk
                            1. How do you enforce 'your' discrimination? If someone's there and you don't want them to be, what do you do?

                            Call the police. So now the government's enforcing your discriminatory policies.

                            2.

                            In consequence of this fact, every person who makes use of a public facility (that is, a facility otherwise open to the public, whether publicly or privately owned) enjoys a presumption of liberty. They may assume that they have as much right as anyone else to use that facility without fear.
                            ...
                            People who own stores and lunch counters, or who maintain premises that offer and provide advertised services to the public can’t say the same. Once they take their property into the public marketplace, or any other public place, it is subject to the rules of justice that govern there, including of course the fundamental premises and principles in light of which the public distinguishes right from wrong in the first place. The fact that I justly own and may lawfully determine the use of my property doesn’t mean that I can do anything I please with it in a public way.
                            ...
                            Thus the very idea of unalienable right invokes such properties of our nature. It is self-evident that respect for alienable property rights (involving land, buildings, movable objects, money and so forth) does not take precedence over respect for the unalienable kind. As a matter of public justice therefore, use of governmental authority to prevent discrimination in the use of public facilities is required to assure respect for individual property rights in the sense most essential to liberty.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:54:34 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  that's exactly right... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, oldpunk

                            ... as would happen in the case of someone who violated a dress code and refuses to leave.

                            Being present against the wishes of a property owner is called trespassing.  Your reason for being there is irrelevant once they have asked you to leave.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:03:24 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Which is fine if it's completely private property (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            which I don't think I've argued against.

                            Once you've opened your doors up to the public or even a select portion of the public, you lose that ability.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:05:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and that's bullshit... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, oldpunk

                            ... if I want to establish a business that carters exclusively to [insert anything that isn't criminal here] that should be my prerogative.

                            Wal-Mart is "completely" private property.  They can ask you to leave because they don't like the shirt you are wearing.  Your gas station could put up a sign that says "No SUVs allowed".  My local Yankees bar could put up a sign that says "No Mets fans allowed."

                            I really don't see why the state has any business compelling people to associate with one another just because one of those people has decided to establish a business.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:11:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So we're not going to see eye to eye. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, rockhound, buddabelly, oldpunk

                            Good enough.

                            I really don't see why the state has any business compelling people to associate with one another just because one of those people has decided to establish a business.

                            My argument would be that you gave up the right to freely associate when you started a business.

                            Just like you give up your right to 4th amendment protections when you become an FFL.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:26:39 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  but why should I have to give up that right to (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            establish a business?  You still haven't provided a satisfactory answer to that.  You mention a supposed right not to be discriminated against by private parties but fail to note the fact that we are discriminated against by private parties every single day of the week.  Is that discrimination somehow less obnoxious just because it isn't based on being a member of a protected class?

                            Roaming off our original topic, just why should you have to give up your 4th amendment rights just to get an FFL?  You don't find that notion to be a little troubling?

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:35:56 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  See here: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            link

                            Roaming off our original topic, just why should you have to give up your 4th amendment rights just to get an FFL?  You don't find that notion to be a little troubling?

                            I don't think you should. I do find it troubling.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:40:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I dispute the notion that a private party is (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            capable of infringing on your rights.  Private party associations are voluntary.  When I can walk away from you at any moment I'm at a loss to see how you can take away my rights.

                            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

                            by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:46:13 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This is why I tried to avoid this issue (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            oldpunk, Crookshanks

                            entirely.  I agree with all of your postings, you've presented my arguments better than I could, at the moment.

                            It's just another form of Authoritarianism.  The state knows what's best for me, even if it goes against someone's personal or religious beliefs.

                          •  Because not everyone has that choice. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            buddabelly

                            I dispute your notion that it's only the state that can infringe on your rights. Due to location and other circumstances, you CAN be forced to associate. Let me give you a better example.

                            I mentioned Crohn's disease earlier.

                            I live in the UP of Michigan.

                            There is all of ONE location that my insurance covers in the UP, which means I get to take two days off from work and find a car/hotel room when I need to go get scoped.

                            ONE location.

                            If they said, fuck you, you're of Finnish ancestry, go away, I would be screwed. I can't afford the thousands of dollars it takes to go someplace else.

                            (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:30:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

            •  1964 CA prop 14 (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea, oldpunk, Crookshanks, KVoimakas

              voters struck down the states 'open housing' law which prevented property owners from discriminating against purchasers or renters on the basis of race by a proportion of 2 to one, almost the inverse of el-BJ's victory
              i believe the current rent laws in Austin are are inapplicable to those owning 3 or less rental units.

              Dems got 60+% of the vote in 64, 8 years later, after firing up the culture wars... Nixon Got 60+% in 72 when reelected

              Anyone who marries more than twice, deserves their 1st wife back- Groucho

              by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:54:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Here in AZ (8+ / 0-)

      they need to post the official proper sign if they want no firearms in their place of business - not just writing it on a piece of paper or summat.

      Hey it just dawned on me the local electric company office has a home-made sign that says no firearms.  I should go make a point of correcting them because what they want is very obtainable, but they - like the rest of us - are supposed to do things in accordance with the law.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site