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View Diary: RKBA:The illogic of safe gun ownership. (308 comments)

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  •  time to play the racism card then is it? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gerrilea

    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

    by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 08:15:08 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  you are arguing for the right to discriminate (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KVoimakas

      If that's not a racist/classist/sexist/whatever ist position then enlighten me....

      Under civil rights law it is plain that discrimination based on color creed race religion are all incompatible with our ideals as a country...and hopefully soon sexual orientation

      A public accommodation flat does not have the right to discriminate no matter how much the right to free association is invoked....

      If you are having a barbecue, you most definitely have the right to invite anyone you like....If on the other hand, you sell that barbecue to the public, then you have crossed the line to public accommodation  and your right to chose association, your customers, is limited by civil rights law and for a very good reason.....

      Allowing discrimination and saying the marketplace will stop it is not reality.  The only thing that has ever stopped discrimination is civil rights law.....and to this day it's a fight.  There are regular studies that show people with "Black sounding" names get less job interviews even with identical resumes and are still to this day discriminated against in housing, medical care and other areas......

      Back to my og statement about the fundy pharmacist, If they are not able to treat all equally while doing their job while leaving their religion and prejudices behind, then they are in the wrong business......

      And in many areas, they might be the only option for many miles...Not everyone is lucky enough to be able to up and go somewhere else...Like myself now, I've been stuck here for 3 weeks with every car broken....If the local store decided they weren't going to serve my hippie ass as I don't fit in their religious beliefs then they have caused harm and possibly grave physical harm......

      That's what the civil rights movement was about and the fight continues to this day....It's not a post anything society by any stretch and without the law as it sits, we would be in the jim crow days again within a year.....

      Our ideal is that all men are created equal....unfortunately this requires the force of law as we are a multi ist society....and I don't see that changing soon.....

      This is why the entire set of amendments need to be incorporated against the states under P&I where it belongs....As Americans we have certain privileges and immunities and one of those is that public accommodations are not allowed to discriminate.....

      "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

      by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 09:16:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'm arguing for the right of free association (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea

        Nothing more, nothing less.

        You have a depressing view of the United States if you think we'd be back to Jim Crow in a year without forced association.

        There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

        by Crookshanks on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:31:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you have the right to free association all you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          KVoimakas

          want in your personal life. So do I , so does everyone....

          When in business you are a public accommodation and as such, you have a limited ability to refuse service....

          Maybe New York has managed to kill off most racism/any ism....but I doubt it....There are still many many people who would love a return to segregation whether by force of law or through the application of Free Association to segregate their business.....The thought of seeing whites only signs again in this country makes me ill....and it would happen if the Federal Civil Rights laws weren't enforced......

          "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

          by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:40:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But aren't we then getting into contract law? (0+ / 0-)

            Don't I have the right to chose with whom I make contracts? There's an implied contract that if I manufacture then sell a product that it will work as described and promoted and that it will be safe if used as intended and now (as directed).

            Please see my post on how I could not protect my Store against the pilferage of school students here.

            The idea of segregation from a moral perspective, I have to agree, it shouldn't be allowed.  And I'm grateful that there are laws that make the behavior illegal.

            But aren't we going overboard with this? Soon, every person in America will be considered a "protected class." We'll all be designated as victims.  A society based on "I'm a victim" and the mentality that "you owe me."

            While sadly I agree with your point that many would love to return to segregation, and it reared its ugly head as a corporate manager for Uni-Mart, LLC out of PA. My field supervisor never actually told me not to hire black people, but he made it very clear he didn't want them working for the company by saying: "They don't fit the image of our Company." Out of the 154 Store Managers, not one of them was black and in all the stores I ever visited, I never saw a black employee, except in my Store.

            And I'm stopping now, because, again, this could be flushed out in a separate diary that many would not like to hear or read.

            Back to my point on how this relates to guns, haven't we argued that gun control is so many things and that we can't legislate morality?

            How do we reconcile these clearly two opposing views, the unalienable right to practice and live ones faith and the "right to buy", which by the way, I've never read that part in the constitution.

            If I had an open carry license and I was doing so in my own business and a customer comes in and gets offended because they have a faith of strict non-violence, who's rights prevail here?  From your stated perspective, I would then be obligated to remove and hide my firearm, correct?

            We get into very dangerous waters here if this is allowed, imho.

            Or what about Muslim women that wear their Burka's? If they wear one and I enter their establishment to do business, what if I'm offended? Do they have to remove it because they are "in the public domain"?

            It could be used by our overzealous LEO to prevent them from exercising what is clearly a religious mandate for them, could it not?

            Again, very dangerous waters we enter into.

          •  actually no.... (0+ / 0-)

            you have a limited ability to refuse service....

            You can still refuse service for almost any reason you want other than the customer being a member of a protected class.

            The thought of seeing whites only signs again in this country makes me ill

            I would love to see it happen again.  Then I would know who the racists are and could ensure that my money is not going to them.  As I said in a different post, this is a self-correcting problem.

            There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap box, ballot box, jury box and ammo box. Use in that order.

            by Crookshanks on Thu Oct 28, 2010 at 08:02:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  With the fuckhead racists I deal with (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buddabelly

          up here in the UP, I'd say my point of view would be justified in certain areas.

          (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

          by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:41:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There's sure a few here too, I'm lucky (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea, KVoimakas

            in that Tucson is much better than many for having a multicultural population with very few problems.

            Some of the Phx area though whew but even here, I clicked into craigslist local rants and raves and thought I'd been redirected to fucking stormfront......They're here too...

            Where I actually live is probably 60%+ hispanic, mostly Mexican and out here, everyone really just gets along....

            There's been 29 houses in my neighborhood hit in the last 6 weeks...Worst part, the damn cops know who it is, they just haven't caught them for some reason....Typical nest of tweakers.....An old friend got hit yesterday...These scumbags are focusing on guns too, they cut open his safe and took everything including the ammunition.....

            We haven't been able to leave the house unattended for quite a while now and it's really a pita.....

            "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

            by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:55:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How'd they cut into his safe? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gerrilea, buddabelly

              Did he actually have a vault safe or was it a wooden gun cabinet safe?

              (RKBA) Right to Keep and Bear Arms: interested in a DKos RKBA group? Email in profile. Share Our Wealth

              by KVoimakas on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 10:57:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  RSC rather than a real safe safe (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea, KVoimakas

                but these guys are bringing the tools to do the job because there have been those with very nice safes with the same results....and his was certainly better than mine..

                Luckily, my "shed" is an 8x40 shipping container and then I keep them in another safe inside it....A safe in a safe but if they have torches, they can still get in.....

                These scum bust in and just take everything and leave a person with literally nothing, down to the small kitchen .

                I really hope the cops arrest these scum quick because if not, someone is going to get hurt....so far they do it in the daytime when no one is home but sooner or later, someone is going to catch them in the act....They're just hitting too hard and fast to not have it happen......

                "Guess who's laughing while the world explodes, When we're all crybabies Who fight best among ourselves" John Joseph Lydon

                by buddabelly on Tue Oct 26, 2010 at 11:05:20 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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