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  •  I've never seen a burka in the US (0+ / 0-)

    I've seen plenty of hijabs, worn as ethnic costume and for modesty.

    I've also seen lots of Eastern European women wearing headscarves for not dissimilar reasons. Do you have a problem with them?

    And as recently as 50 years ago, it was considered appropriately decent Western dress for all people to have headcoverings when outdoors.

    So what's the problem?

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Thu Oct 21, 2010 at 10:59:20 AM PDT

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    •  Never? (0+ / 0-)

      Because I saw a Muslim family on a 100 degree day, where dad and son were in a T-shirt and shorts, while mom and daughter trudged along behind in full burkas.  This was on the streets of Chicago, and I was offended as hell.

      Yes, I do have a problem with headscarves, because of what the headscarf means.  It's not a fashion statement, it's a requirement that a woman keep her "unclean" body hidden from view.

      It's horribly sexist, and I think it's a slap in the face of all women for liberals to refuse to admit it.

      •  See, the funny thing is, they see your insistence (0+ / 0-)

        that women bare as much of their bodies in public as possible as a sign that they're nothing more that objects for you to leer at.

        I think there's merit to both views.

        Which is why I don't tell people how to dress.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Thu Oct 21, 2010 at 11:32:00 AM PDT

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        •  I insist on nothing but equality (0+ / 0-)

          Did I say the women had to wear tanktops and short shorts?  Did I say they had to show as much skin as possible?  No, I didn't.  My #1 issue is with the full covering of the head and face, because that removes a person's humanity and turns them into property, which is the entire point.

          If it was about modesty, then why aren't the sexes equal?  Why don't the men also have to be modest.  If it's okay for the men to show skin but not the women, then it's not about modesty but control.

          I can ask non sequiturs as well.  Why do you insist that Muslim men be able to treat women like slaves?

          •  You're clearly threatened by it (0+ / 0-)

            You compared the wearing of ethnic costume to the wearing of costume associated with criminal gangs, equating headscarves to gang signs.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Thu Oct 21, 2010 at 11:47:55 AM PDT

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            •  No I did not compare them that way (0+ / 0-)

              If you're going to be intellectually dishonest, then I'm done with this.

              I said that dress, the choice made, has a meaning.  If someone dresses like a gang member, then I will treat that person accordingly, based on the way they choose to present themselves.

              If someone dresses in a headscarf, marking herself as unclean and inferior, then I will treat that person accordingly, as they have asked to be treated.  I will avoid her and feel sorry that she is in an abusive relationship.  It's not threatening to me.  To me it's just sad.  It's threatening to the woman.

              I did not equate the meaning of one dress with the meaning of another.  You did that.

          •  And where's your outrage about the similar (0+ / 0-)

            headscarf worn by married Orthodox Jews?

            Don't they look like terrifying gangbangers to you too?

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Thu Oct 21, 2010 at 11:52:34 AM PDT

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            •  I'm oppossed to all headscarves (0+ / 0-)

              Everywhere the cultural symbol of the head covering means the woman is unclean or inferior, or needs to be hidden away from the world, I consider that offensive based on the sexist inequality.

              I propose no laws against it.  I will simply ignore that person and leave them in their self-imposed cultural isolation.

              Why would I think an Orthodox Jew looks like a gangbanger?

      •  You should also note that voluntary wearing (0+ / 0-)

        of the headscarf even by secular Muslim women in the west, including single independent ones, went way up after the backlash against Muslim dress you're embracing.

        They don't seem to associate it with repression. And they certainly don't seem to like being told by outsiders what to wear.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Thu Oct 21, 2010 at 11:46:17 AM PDT

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        •  But I'm not telling them what to wear (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not.  I have never told a Muslim woman to remove her headscarf, and I never will.  If it's truly her choice, then fine.  I am simply reacting to the way they choose to present themselves.  I find it offensive based on the cultural history, which is my right.

          They have the right to dress how they like, and I have the right to react to it.  That's how freedom works.  What they don't get to do is dress however they like, and then make it a thought crime to not like it.

          But you should note that the wearing of the headscarf went way up after the Taliban started beating up and killing women who didn't want to wear it.  A lot of women simply decided it wasn't worth dying over.  The amount of voluntary use is up for debate.

    •  on a recent flight (0+ / 0-)

      from St.Louis to Dulles there was a woman in FULL hiqab ( i think that's the word) ONLY thing showing.....her eyes. She was accompanied by a male.

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