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View Diary: Third Way tells Democrats to stop being Democrats (254 comments)

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  •  It's all about how you define the middle (15+ / 0-)

    and the point is, the middle ain't corporate America, as the Third Way it trying to define it.

    •  Look. (0+ / 0-)

      Democrats have lost their governing coalition.  That cannot be argued.  The question is how are they going to get it back?  The answer must include siezing the middle ground again which includes people like The Third Way.  If not, Obama serves one term and Dems get used to minority status for a while.

      The fact remains that the most successful governments are the ones who govern from the middle.

      •  There is no middle, we didn't lose the middle (6+ / 0-)

        we lost young voters, African Americans and Independents, who just "punished" Democrats for not delivering jobs. This is not an ideological fight, it's about poor economic policy and a tepid jobs program, which by the way was engineered by a "Wall Street", "Third Way" economist, Larry "heckuva job" Summers. This is Republican bullshit and these people may be "a way" but not the correct way. Listening to them would make us even more Republican Lite than the Clinton White House, which by the way, was not a great time for working Americans, with more McJobs created, the export of manufacturing jobs increasing and the beginning of the deconstruction of the social safety net. If that's the "middle" you think we can't live without,then your welcome to them. I'd rather try to get a real set of Democratic programs enacted than  listen to these shills for the oligarchy.  

        "Intelligence is quickness in seeing things as they are..." George Santayana

        by KJG52 on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 09:39:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay. Pull that throttle lever and (0+ / 0-)

          off the cliff we go.  If you think this election was about frustration, then more Republicans would have lost.  They didn't.  It was only Democrats in the Senate and more than sixty in the House.

          It is time to wake up and understand that American politics is played between the 40 yard lines and as long as you stay there, you can be successful.

          •  your opinion is completely vapid (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RandomSequence

            Sorry, the only reason the pundits like to talk about ideology so much is because they're too uneducated to talk about economics and its direct relationship with politics. Being a "moderate" won't help  you win elections if unemployment is at 9.2%. If it did, the progressives would have been wiped out this election, not the Blue Dogs.

            •  Look, Obama has to sieze the middle (0+ / 0-)

              because, whether you like it or not, the Republicans have the House and enough votes to strangle the Senate.  The American people took his ability to govern based on his agenda away from him.  That is the reality of the situation.

              So, he has to govern with Republicans now and that means having to move to the center.  If he doesn't then he risks defeat in 2012.  If he loses in 2012, it will be as disatrous as the Carter defeat in 1980.

              •  how will "moving to the center" create jobs? (3+ / 0-)

                Give me serious proposals and analysis. You're just yammering empty slogans. This "move left, right, center" nonsense is just a crutch for people who want to look like experts without actually doing the work of educating themselves on policy and actual political science.

                Give me ideas, not slogans. Slogans and posturing won't create jobs and won't get Democrats elected.

                •  Tax ideas (0+ / 0-)

                  Extend all Bush tax cuts for two years, after that, make permanent the middle class tax cuts, expand them, and increase the top marginal rate to 37.5% and then phase in a 39.6% marginal rate on the top bracket over three years.

                  Make permanent the 15% tax on long term capital gains and extend that rate to corporations.

                  Eliminate the limitation on social security wages.

                  Consider suspension of payroll taxes for EMPLOYEES for a short period (6 months).

                  Increase the child tax credit to $2500.

                  Increase the higher education tax credits to $2500 and make them refundable.

                  Increase the EIC by $500.

                  Repeal the 1099 mess in the AHCA.

                  These are some.

                  •  Exactly how are these going to create jobs? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RandomSequence, KJG52, Stroszek

                    Your biggest ideas were in place during the Bush admin, but very few jobs were created.  This is not economic investment, it is financial investment and will only help the top 5-10%.

                    ONE DOLLAR, ONE VOTE! - Supreme Court of the United States. Amend the constitution! Corporations are NOT people!! Money is NOT speech!

                    by Back In Blue on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 11:19:24 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  With the rise of influence of the t-party, (0+ / 0-)

        how can you say that?  The GOP may have lost the opportunity of gaining control of the senate because of the t-party, but that's because those candidates were seen on a national level and exposed for what they were.  But the success in the house, where candidates were not on television everyday, was entirely due to the enthusiasm generated by the t-party and the response from independents who are most likely not t-baggers and also not GOPers.

        I'm not suggesting the dems go hard left, but the as I say in my other reply, the middle is a moving target and doesn't define independents.  We need to rally independents, not the generic middle.  Third Way is nothing but the exact group of people everyone blames for our troubles—Wall Street.  

        ONE DOLLAR, ONE VOTE! - Supreme Court of the United States. Amend the constitution! Corporations are NOT people!! Money is NOT speech!

        by Back In Blue on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 09:43:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  See comment right above about throttle lever. nt (0+ / 0-)
          •  See my comment "What is the middle?" above. (0+ / 0-)

            We need to start looking at things more accurately because falling back on old ideas is not going to work with the situation we have now.  The middle is not Third Way.  Third Way represents Wall Street, everyone knows it and everyone blames them.  They are toxic.

            ONE DOLLAR, ONE VOTE! - Supreme Court of the United States. Amend the constitution! Corporations are NOT people!! Money is NOT speech!

            by Back In Blue on Fri Nov 05, 2010 at 10:58:24 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  That's just ridiculous (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nippersdad, Ezekial 23 20

        They've still got the White House and Senate. That's 2/3 of the governing coalition. So yes, it can be argued.

        And that doesn't answer at all my point, or the point of this post, that the middle is not the Chamber of Commerce.

        •  No Joan, the coalition is gone. (0+ / 0-)

          Obama cannot govern without reaching out to Republicans now.  His agenda that he pursued in the first two years will go nowhere without support from moderates.

          Time to wake up! This election was as much of a restraining order as anything.

          •  so the Republicans are the moderates? (0+ / 0-)

            Tipped your hand a bit too much there, eh?

          •  And you're still not answering the real point (0+ / 0-)

            so I will ask you straight out: what is your definite of the center?

            And a corollary, give me three examples of Obama's liberal overreach from the last three years.

            And explain to us why weekly meetings with Senator Snowe and months and months of negotiation with Grassley and Enzi on health reform don't count as reaching out to Republicans.

            Start backing up your assertions with some real definitions, some real evidence.

            •  You are right in that it is a perception. (0+ / 0-)

              However, it shouldn't be that hard for Obama to beat the Republicans to it.  See my tax ideas comment above.  

              When the economy gets moving again, people get back to work, it will be easier to make progress on social and economic fronts.  However, Obama must recognize the danger he is in and if he loses in 2012 the effects that will last because of it.

              The tax ideas I have list would help to achieve the perception that Obama is playing between the 40 yard lines.

              Extend all Bush tax cuts for two years, after that, make permanent the middle class tax cuts, expand them, and increase the top marginal rate to 37.5% and then phase in a 39.6% marginal rate on the top bracket over three years.

              Make permanent the 15% tax on long term capital gains and extend that rate to corporations.

              Eliminate the limitation on social security wages.

              Consider suspension of payroll taxes for EMPLOYEES for a short period (6 months).

              Increase the child tax credit to $2500.

              Increase the higher education tax credits to $2500 and make them refundable.

              Increase the EIC by $500.

              Repeal the 1099 mess in the AHCA.

              These are some.

            •  I forgot to list the over reaches, but (0+ / 0-)

              I don't really need to because all you need to do is read some opinion pieces from center or objective outlets.  Whether you agree with them or not is an entirely different questions, but the perceptions among the electorate are legion.

        •  Really, if the election were about frustration (0+ / 0-)

          with the economy and jobs, more Republicans would have lost.  They didn't lose any in the Senate and just three in the House.  How many did Democrats lose; six in the senate and more than 60 in the House.

          The American people took Obama's ability to govern based on his agenda away from him.  He must include Republicans in governing now or face the prospect of one term.  If he gets beat in 2012, it will be disastrous.  It will be as bad as Carter losing to Reagan.

          •  Republicans controlled 0 branches of government (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wsexson

            The public considered the economy the Democrat's responsibility. The Democrats, evidently, failed to meet their concerns.

            The question, then, is how to improve the economy. This requires real ideas based in substance, not vapid "move to the center" sloganeering.

            •  You are right, it does require real ideas (0+ / 0-)

              and it requires passage.  Passage now goes through a GOP House.  How can we realistically expect more progressive policies to pass through that body?

              •  well, that's quite a conundrum (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wsexson

                especially, as McConnell has made apparent, Republicans don't see any incentive to help Democrats improve the economy since presidents typically get the blame for ailing economy.

                This is why moderate Democrats, if they wanted to keep their jobs, should have listened to people like Christina Romer and Mark Zandi (McCain's chief economic advisor) when they were saying that the stimulus was too small to cover even half of the GDP shortfall from the economic collapse.

                Poor ideas beget poor political fortunes. If the Blue Dogs had been more concerned about creating jobs and less concerned about looking "moderate," they wouldn't be joining 9.2% of American workers in the unemployment line.

                •  Ah, there you go. See . . . (0+ / 0-)

                  If Obama siezes the middle, and GOPers refuse to meet him there, then the voters will blame the GOPers.  There is a precident for this.

                  •  swing voters don't pay that close attention (0+ / 0-)

                    to politics. This is what a lot of people in the political class just don't get. This is why Obama gets the blame for the "liberal" Wall Street bailouts when it was a Bush program aggressively supported by the Republican leadership.

                    And Obama has already tried meeting the GOP in the middle. Both the stimulus and health insurance reform were gutted in an attempt to appease the likes of Olympia Snowe and Chuck Grassley.

                    And by the way, the stimulus was very popular when it was passed. It only became unpopular when it proved inadequate.

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