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View Diary: What about the pay ethic? (294 comments)

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  •  So there it is (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    cloud9ine

    H1B's may not be the administrators, but you bet they contribute lots of hard work in making the place actually, you know, run.

    50+ yr old IT workers have simply been laid off to allow for a 20 something foreign worker willing to work for half the wage and put in twice the hours.

    Half the wage/twice the hours? Yeah, that would work.

    "Hey boss, how come I'm here 16 hours a day, and everybody else gets to go home after 8?"
    "Shut up, Pablo, or your H1B gets revoked."

    Really? You see this scenario a lot? In reality, these workers blend just fine, after a while they will command the same prices as their US counterparts. If not higher. I know, I hire these folks. Their work ethic is at least as strong as their US counterparts, if not stronger.

    Furthermore, there is something to be said about salary inflation. If you are at a place long enough, depending on how the raise structure goes, it's very possible your skills aren't keeping up with your salary. The whole notion of never accepting a salary downgrade is ridiculous.

    Finally, H1B's work and LIVE here. Every dollar they make goes for local groceries, paying rent, paying full taxes, etc. They are fully productive members of the society, immediately, without any cost to the society.

    •  The cost to society (5+ / 0-)

      Is that that H1B has taken somebody else's JOB, kicking them into unemployment.

      Not just a 50-something American's job, also 40 and 30-somethings.

      Yes, it happens. A lot. IT has gone from being a golden child to being like a sweat shop.

      At my company -- we are going on year 3 of a salary and hiring freeze. There is a job mobility freeze (e.g., if I wanted to change into project management, I can't. I'm locked into my current position)

      If we lose an American (through one of several layoffs during the year or because they choose to leave) the only way to replace them is with an H1B or somebody in Bangalore. There is NO hiring of Americans.

      Oh, and there is mandatory overtime (salaried, we don't get paid more) and working on weekends.

      Now they are talking about cutting the Americans' pay to be more equal with the H1Bs.

      It's going to be hard to make my student loan payments that I acquired getting a masters in computer science if I have to take a pay cut.  

      •  A piece of advice (0+ / 0-)

        So if your company is treating you like crap, then start looking now. There are decent companies, and then, there are apparently the companies like the one you work for.
        I'm not saying quit now, just that you need to start looking. The bright spot is that there are better places out there - you just need to find them.

        So if you take out highly skilled workers, what kind of immigration would you allow? Low-skilled workers? None? Because those are utterly untenable positions.

        Just curious where you stand on immigration in general.

        •  Defintely clueless.. Is reality something you (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          salmo, kurt

          have lost track of?

          So if your company is treating you like crap, then start looking now.

          You may be hiring IT people, but you surely don't have a programmer's sense of logic.  Highly skilled positions are few and far between because of jerkoffs like you who think it is perfectly fine to bring in foreigners to replace us!  Arrrrghhhhh!

          So if you take out highly skilled workers, what kind of immigration would you allow? Low-skilled workers? None? Because those are utterly untenable positions.

          Untenable to who?  Oh yeah.. the corporations who want cheaper and cheaper labor!

          You don't get it.  NO immigration for skilled (or even unskilled) positions.  We have more than enough skilled labor right here.  

          "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." - G. Marx

          by Skeptical Bastard on Mon Nov 01, 2010 at 01:37:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  First of all, calm down (0+ / 0-)

            Calling people clueless or jerkoffs and telling them they've lost track of reality does not get the discussion anywhere.

            The levels for H1Bs have dropped to about half of what they used to be. They're at 65+20K now. They are snagged immediately upon offering for the year. Since they expire every three years, that's a maximum of 85K*3 people in this country on H1B's. Are you saying that by kicking some 250K people of this country, we'll be solving our unemployment problem? Unless you're a giant company, (I'm in a 30 person small business), good luck getting your hands on any of those.

            From where I sit, when somebody walks through my door for a position I need, I look at how good a person at the job relevant functions - first and foremost. The discussion of their legal status doesn't come until after we've made the decision (as long as they're here legally overall). And we pay the same, regardless of legal status.

            So I'm sorry, the best person wins, regardless of skin color, sex, shape of their head, or, yes, their nationality. If you want the job, be better than people you're competing against. Or develop unique skills. You should be doing that regardless of anything else.

            My impression is that companies don't want cheaper, they want quality. Which, based on trying to find a decent web oriented .Net candidate for over a year, is very hard to find.

            As for "NO immigration," yes, that is ridiculous. That is a teabagger "we're here, now quick, shut the gates" mentality that is just sad. It's time to shed this 19th century nationalistic point of view.  We can't do it all on our own, and we better start accepting whatever quality help we can get.

        •  My stand on immigration (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Odysseus

          Is that a) I don't have issues with people immigrating here legally, for any skill level of job, in general although b) it shouldn't be easy for them.

          However, it shouldn't be done in such a manner that other people aren't losing their jobs. Jobs in the US should be preferentially filled by Americans.

          Just like if I moved to Canada or Finland or India, I'd expect those companies to make it harder for me to be hired over one of their own citizens.

          The point is we need to stop the rhetoric that the jobs being filled by immigrants are jobs nobody else wants. Because, a lot of IT (and other) US workers WANT THEIR JOB. And they are being removed from their job by being downsized. Then that job goes to cheaper, AND LESS QUALIFIED, labor.

          •  Hm (0+ / 0-)

            However, it shouldn't be done in such a manner that other people aren't losing their jobs.

            Unless the unemployment is at 0%, somebody can always claim it cost them their job. It can always be the laziest person down the chain who is just too lazy to do their job. Or show up on time. Etc. A little pressure is always good.

            If Canada or Finland or India allowed you to move, wouldn't you expect to be treated with respect, based on your individual merits, rather than on where you came from? If they already accept you to come and live there, would you want to stay a 2nd grade citizen for the rest of your life?

            "The point is we need to stop the rhetoric that the jobs being filled by immigrants are jobs nobody else wants."

            Some are, and some aren't. Low-skilled, low-paid jobs, absolutely. I believe Colbert's satire during his testimony was right to the point.
            When it comes to IT - the wailing against those damn immigrants is utterly misplaced. Yes, they add a bit of extra competition to the field. But on a grand scale, companies need to start hiring in general, and they need to stop expecting productivity gains year after year, from the same employees. Companies (esp. large ones), are hoarding cash like there's no tomorrow, and do a lot of shitty things, like outsourcing entire departments to foreign countries. That needs to stop. People who are here already - or are deserving of H1B's - leave em be.

        •  P.S. (0+ / 0-)

          Why do you think I haven't been looking?

          •  Then keep looking (0+ / 0-)

            Please.

            After interviews, find out what they think you're lacking, and work on that.

            Show up sharp, ready to think, and demonstrate expertise. Do interview coaching, if necessary. Do all those things you're supposed to do.

            If possible, consider moving to a different city. There is work out there, and regions that are more hopping than others.

            And honestly, have the best of luck out there. I hope you, and everybody else looking right now, finds a company that will treat them well and fairly.

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