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View Diary: Condi Lied: Declassified Memo from Clarke (416 comments)

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  •  "new Pearl Harbor" (none)
    Does that phrase ring a bell?
    •  how about the original Pearl Harbor. (4.00)
      It's widely known that FDR wanted to take a more active role in the European theatre from '39-'41, but felt that public opinion would not support American involvement unless there was a more immediate threat.

      Does that mean that FDR planned or was in any way complicit in the original Pearl Harbor?  

      I hate Bush's foreign policy-- but if you're going to convince me that an American president took an active part in killing 3,000 innocent American civilians, you better have more than 3 words in a right-wing think tank piece.

      "If immortality is found in the absence of time rather than infinite stretches of time, then those who live in the present live forever."

      by WAmod on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:05:17 PM PST

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      •  I suggest you read the Commanders (none)
        by Bob Woodward. I no longer have a copy but in the intro or first chapter I remember someone in the first Bush adminstration saying that if you want to get into a war, the best way is to be attacked first...wish I had the book, I would post the exact quote.
        •  Again, (none)
          FDR felt the same way about American involvement in WWII.  It doesn't prove anything and distracts from their actual culpability.

          "If immortality is found in the absence of time rather than infinite stretches of time, then those who live in the present live forever."

          by WAmod on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:37:02 PM PST

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          •  Pearl Harbor (none)
            In fact, FDR and his advisors were certain that the Japanese would attack US forces at some point.  They knew the Japanese fleet had left harbor and was on a mission.  There were four probable targets, Pearl Harbor being one of them.  I forget the other three, sorry (It's been ages since I read the relevant history books and wrote a college paper on the alleged conspiracy), but I think they were all US bases in the Pacific.  

            Short version of the story is that yes, there is some reason to believe that FDR & Co. knew there was an attack coming at Pearl Harbor and did nothing to warn the local commanders about it.  The local forces were only told to be on alert for sabotage.  The result was that all the ships were in the docks, all the planes were parked close together on the airstrips, etc., and the damage was far greater than it would have been if they had been on alert.

            I haven't read the recently-published book by Stinnett, Day of Deceit, but I understand he found some new info through FOIA that bolsters the conspiracy theory.

            Regardless of whether or not this theory is true, it's crucially important to realize that many of these neocons believe in it, and much as they loathe FDR, they would surely emulate him if it meant they would be as successful as he was.

            So yeah, tinfoil-hatty though it may be, I'm coming around to thinking that there was some kind of administration complicity in 9/11.

      •  Show me (none)
        FDR's November 1941 PDB that says "Hirohito determined to attack United States" and I'll let you know.
        •  ARGGH! (4.00)
          The Aug 6th PDB proves the admin's incompetence!  It proves that they had a very state centered foreign policy view, and dismissed non-governmental threats like Islamic terrorism.  It does not prove any kind of governmental complicity in 9/11!

          Every time people here spout off these crazy and foundless conspiracy theories, it takes away from Bush's actual culpability and it makes all of us look like a bad X-files episode.  It's embarrassing.

          "If immortality is found in the absence of time rather than infinite stretches of time, then those who live in the present live forever."

          by WAmod on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:35:32 PM PST

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          •  That was a frame (none)
            What part of the evidence on the newly declassified FAA warnings doesn't add up for you?

            WASHINGTON, Feb. 9 - In the months before the Sept. 11 attacks, federal aviation officials reviewed dozens of intelligence reports that warned about Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, some of which specifically discussed airline hijackings and suicide operations, according to a previously undisclosed report from the 9/11 commission.

            Among other things, the report says that leaders of the F.A.A. received 52 intelligence reports from their security branch that mentioned Mr. bin Laden or Al Qaeda from April to Sept. 10, 2001. That represented half of all the intelligence summaries in that time.

            Five of the intelligence reports specifically mentioned Al Qaeda's training or capability to conduct hijackings, the report said.

            So, you would chalk the entire context of warnings, from Clarke's memo through the summer of hair on fire and right up to 9/10 to incompetence?  They must be the most incompetent mofos in history.

            •  "the most incompetent mofo's in history" (none)
              exactly.

              But it also has to do with ideology.  Their neo-Realism was the reason that, initially, their main defense focus was on missile defense shields, ten years after the end of the cold war.  It also explains why they dismiss trans-national terrorism and even post-9/11 can't get past their focus on naion-states.  

               

              "If immortality is found in the absence of time rather than infinite stretches of time, then those who live in the present live forever."

              by WAmod on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 08:07:48 PM PST

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      •  This comparison is gratuitous and silly (4.00)
        That "right-wing think tank" now controls the federal government, if you haven't noticed. It is a cult, in the word of Sy Hersch, that has hijacked the United States.

        Did FDR belong to a group with a radical agenda before he was elected? Was his administration run essentially as a crime family with open contempt for the rule of law? Did he launch wars on lies? Did he have fifty warnings of Pearl Harbor before the attacks? Did he refuse to meet people who wanted to urgently warn him about the Japanese?

        You also have a specious straw man in the "3000" American citizens--one out of Bush's own mouth, when he said the fact that he didn't know the exact time, place and location of the attacks excused him from all responsibility.

        The claim that the White House was complicit need only go so far as to encompass an agreement to let a little terrorist attack take place. A few people, maybe another military target like the Cole or a plane hijacked in the traditional sense would certainly be "worth it" to Wolfowitz and Feith and Cheney. Too much happened on 9-11 that has yet to be explained. The idea is not proven but it is hardly ridiculous.

    •  Not In My Belfry (4.00)
      It does in the number of casualties--hence the personal tragedy--and in the sense of our being caught with our pants inexcusably down. But that's where the comparison stops.

      Pearl Harbor was attacked by the massed forces of an expanding empire. On 9/11, 4 buildings were hit with planes hijacked by a couple dozen individuals wielding knives.

      On 9/11, unarmed civilians brought down one of the planes, averting 25% of the attack. I don't think anything done on our side at Pearl Harbor saved a comparable fraction of damage.

      Pearl Harbor destroyed much of the U.S. Navy's functionality in the Pacific for several years and helped allow the Japanese Empire to expand. I've never heard that 9/11 caused any detectable damage to our ability to project force anywhere.

      1941 put us into a global war against allied empires that were well along into conquering serious fractions of two hemispheres. 9/11 threw us up against a few radicals who couldn't hold its 3rd world territory a month after we first hit back. There was so little war to fight against terror that we had time to start one against a disinterested nation.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Feb 10, 2005 at 07:36:29 PM PST

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      •  knives (none)
        They had a lot more than knives and box cutters.  Probably had tear gas, possibly bombs, and more, according to the last phone calls of several passengers and crew.

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