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View Diary: Obama: Extend middle-class tax cuts, forget borrowing for the rich (414 comments)

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  •  Re (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Boston to Salem, Lothar2009

    When the money is paid back, does that not take money back out of the economy to the precise degree (plus interest) that it was injected when it was borrowed?

    /I mean, the fact that we are going to pay it back is laughable, it's almost certain that we are going to default on the debt

    (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
    Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

    by Sparhawk on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 07:44:35 AM PDT

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    •  asdf (5+ / 0-)

      The theory is that when the economy is more robust and going strongly, we will be able to afford paying it back.

      I'm not saying this is an awesome theory - I'm just saying I believe that is the theory behind why it's OK to borrow for the middle class but not for the wealthy.

      Lisa

      All Kossacks are my allies, but if you can't express your thoughts in a civil and kind manner, I won't be engaging in a conversation with you.

      by Boston to Salem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 07:46:44 AM PDT

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      •  Re (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        hmi

        The theory is that when the economy is more robust and going strongly, we will be able to afford paying it back.

        Consumptive activities don't help this process. If our unemployment rate goes down because we all have retail jobs or government jobs, you can't use that to pay off debt; the debt just continues to mount. In order to take this theory at its word, I would need to see evidence that there is some process by which significant amounts of exportable economic growth occur because of the borrowing.

        I'm not saying this is an awesome theory - I'm just saying I believe that is the theory behind why it's OK to borrow for the middle class but not for the wealthy.

        So, doesn't this then strike you as a little... self-serving, trying to come up with an economic theory that supports what people politically want to do anyway?

        (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
        Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

        by Sparhawk on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 07:50:39 AM PDT

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        •  possibly, yes. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sparhawk, Dustee, CS in AZ

          This is not my theory, I am not advocating this theory. I am simply reporting what I have read/heard re: why it is "ok" to borrow for the middle class but not for the upper class, since you seemed to be asking a question about it.

          Lisa

          All Kossacks are my allies, but if you can't express your thoughts in a civil and kind manner, I won't be engaging in a conversation with you.

          by Boston to Salem on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 08:07:10 AM PDT

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        •  There are political realities though (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          snackdoodle

          Only something like 30% of people say end all the tax cuts.  I'm with you on this - I think all the tax cuts should be ended, but I don't think it is politically possible to end them right now.  However, tax cuts for the lowest income levels, say under $40K, probably would stimulate the economy.

          "Die Stimme der Vernuft ist leise." (The voice of reason is soft)

          by ivorybill on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 08:09:44 AM PDT

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          •  How much will our taxes go up, if the cuts expire (0+ / 0-)

            on December 31st?

            President Obama says if congress doesn't act to extend them, our taxes go up January 1. How much are we talking about? Does our paycheck withholding rate change immediately, as in people will be receiving a smaller paycheck on their first payday in January? If that happens and it's a noticeable amount, it will be disastrous ... both politically for the White House and Congress, and financially for a lot of us who are barely hanging on as it is. My husband just asked me "how much will our checks be reduced" and I don't know the answer... guess I need to do some research on this because counting on congress to act to prevent it seems like a long shot. Damn.

            •  It's a panoply of changes, actually (0+ / 0-)
              Payroll withholding is, of course, tied into the prevailing tax rates, so the amount of your withholding would change accordingly:

              Some taxpayers in the 10 percent bracket would go to the 15 percent bracket;
              The 25 percent bracket would go to 28 percent;
              The 28 percent bracket would become 31 percent;
              The 33 percent bracket would go to 36 percent; People in the highest bracket -- 35 percent -- would see their rate go up to 39.6 percent

              The AMT would once again apply to families making $45,000 or more and individuals making at least $33,750.

              The child tax credit would be halved; the estate tax would return to 55 percent with a $1 million exemption; the marriage penalty inequities would return; and capital gains rates will return to 20 percent, while the tax on dividends will go back to marginal rates.

              See here

              What you believe determines what you can observe. Einstein

              by dharmafarmer on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 09:19:51 AM PDT

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          •  Isn't a definition of courage (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            magnetics

            to do what is right, even when it's hard?

            With redistricting, the Dems are screwed anyway, this will be the last opportunity for a very long time to stop the madness.

        •  Well, today is the (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ferg, ravenwind, Dustee, SteelerGrrl

          very first time the world has ever experienced someone: trying to come up with an economic theory that supports what people politically want to do anyway.

          The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

          by dfarrah on Sat Nov 06, 2010 at 08:40:24 AM PDT

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        •  How about increased tax revenue (0+ / 0-)

          When there is higher employment?  How about bringing BACK those jobs which were outsourced?  As fuel prices rise, it will make less sense to send jets over to China to be serviced, or to ship to the U.S. all of the crap that is made over there.  I'd rather pay a little more for items made here in the U.S.  How about increased values of American investments so that capital comes back here?  How about getting our technology and education base going so that we're not importing clean energy technology from abroad?  If we don't have the middle-class earning and spending more, then there will be no market even for the crap we're importing or for the services we're outsourcing.    

          •  Actually, all you need is for the taxes (0+ / 0-)

            to reflect accurately the value of what's being produced.

            Right now, the middle class pays what--28 to 35% of income tax. The super-wealthy, who don't make income for the bulk of their wealth pay 15% on the money they inherited that just sits there and does nothing but make more money through interest. The money not tied to working and producing should be taxed at a higher rate.  

            I 'ship Obama/America. OTP

            by athenap on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 04:52:53 AM PST

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        •  Consumptive activities do help (0+ / 0-)

          it's a trickle-up. It means having a little extra in the grocery bill to afford more items, or a bigger variance of items. It means the difference between duct-taping your washer together with unicorn farts and pie pans to catch the leaks, versus getting a new one.

          Money in your pocket means you can meet more of your needs, and maybe even some of your wants. Creating demand that fuels supply that creates more jobs and so on. More people moving into the middle class makes a bigger pool to spread the responsibility. A lower tax rate with more people in that tax bracket will generate more income to pay for the common needs we all benefit from.

          I 'ship Obama/America. OTP

          by athenap on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 04:42:20 AM PST

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      •  It's ok because (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        athenap

        it's the middle class who has powered the economy since the Great D. Now, like then, the big problem is that everyone is broke. Except the fortunate few of course, but Ford figured out long ago that the way to get truly rich was marketing to the masses.... so he raised the pay of his workers a lot.

        The consumer will not come back until they have some bucks to spend.

    •  Careful, your theories are starting (0+ / 0-)

      to conflict. Giving the middle class a tax cut means they'll be putting it right back into the economy and spending it the way they want to, not the way the gubmint wants to. Isn't that letting people "keep more of what they earn?"

      PS-Props for your sig line. :)

      I 'ship Obama/America. OTP

      by athenap on Sun Nov 07, 2010 at 04:33:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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