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View Diary: Poll: It's not just Democratic politicians who lack a spine (290 comments)

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  •  stimulus and health care (3+ / 0-)
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    glassbeadgame, pstoller78, moonpal

    we got enough for the stimulus bill.  On health care we were negotiating with ourselves as much as we were negotiating with the GOP (we were on the stimulus too, though I don't think to quite the same extent)

    •  Hence (8+ / 0-)

      Democrats who don't stand for anything.

      And on HCR, given we ultimately passed it via reconciliation, we didn't need to surrender the farm to Nelson/Lincoln/et al.

      •  so.. (5+ / 0-)

        democrats who don't agree with progressives, and thus require negotiations between the two groups, are now defined as "not standing for anything"

        Nice to throw half the party under the bus there

        •  It's not principled disagreement. (3+ / 0-)
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          ferg, Aspe4, ohmyheck

          That's the point. Joe Lieberman shitcanned a "compromise" on Medicare buy in because it pissed off liberals.

          If anything, the LIBERALS who opposed Obamacare were the ones who were fighting for principle, not the other way around.

          •  the point is that (1+ / 0-)
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            people seem to be applying or projecting progressive principles onto Democrats who don't even share those particular principles.

            example: the idea that not going for single payer isn't standing on principles.  Well, for that to be true, you have to be for single payer in the first place, which many dems are not.  You can't compromise your support for something if you don't support it in the first place.

            Now, whether progressives think all democrats should support one thing or another is one thing.  However, I tire of being told that I'm compromising my principles over issues that I don't even support to begin with, at times.  And no, just because I don't agree with Progressives all the time doesn't mean I'm a Republican.

            •  Your assumption is incorrect. (1+ / 0-)
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              I am not projecting ANY principles on the Blue Dog political hacks at all. Quite the opposite. I assume they are unprincipled, period. They only care about what will:

              A) help keep them in office

              B) Help them raise money or make money.

              They don't oppose the public option on principle. They opposed it strictly for political reasons. You cannot compromise something you don't give a shit about giving up inthe first place.

              •  again (0+ / 0-)

                this crap that unless you agree with progressives, then you're unprincipled. some blue dogs might be like that, but otherwise it is pure, unadulterated shit.

                •  You are mssing my point. (2+ / 0-)
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                  Aspe4, CWalter

                  You don't have to agree with progressives to be principled. But, the Blue Dog assholes don't fall into that category.

                  Conservative free market folks do. I had a lot more respect for people who opposed Medicare because they wanted a total free market in health care -- more than the asshole unprincipled hack Blue Dogs.

                  •  Blue Dogs are Possibly Being Deceptive (0+ / 0-)

                    If they would come out and prominently say that they don't believe in Medicare and Social Security, then they are being principled. But if Dems stand for anything, it would seem to be to run as a Dem, you're advertising that you support certain core principles, two of which should be support for Medicare (a form of single payer health insurance) and for Social Security. I'm not talking about any specific Blue Dogs, but it's plain wrong to lie about support for those programs or to just let people assume you support them because you're a Dem. There's got to be some differences between the political parties on core issues, otherwise, the 2-party system is a farce.

                    My back is spineless. My back is yellow. I am the American non-voter. -The Simpsons, Episode 2, Season 3, "Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington"

                    by Aspe4 on Wed Nov 10, 2010 at 10:08:48 AM PST

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            •  I Agree With FleetAdmiral on this Point. (1+ / 0-)
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              Too many people assume that Dems believe in certain principles. I've seen so many variations of the argument, "if only Obama would listen to his heart..." The problem is that Obama and many Dems simply don't believe in the liberal policies that would help the country. That would explain why they negotiate from positions of weakness or are willing to capitulate, because they really don't want to win. They're technically Dems so they have to at least somewhat appear to be fighting with the repugs to enact good policy; but it's all theater.

              My back is spineless. My back is yellow. I am the American non-voter. -The Simpsons, Episode 2, Season 3, "Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington"

              by Aspe4 on Wed Nov 10, 2010 at 09:48:55 AM PST

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              •  that's hardly what I was saying (0+ / 0-)

                It's just the same "you're either principles or you have no principles" argument rewrapped, which is the exact opposite of what I'm arguing

              •  We Agree on the Basic Idea Many Dems (0+ / 0-)

                don't share the same principles as liberals. The difference is that I took the argument a little further to draw a different conclusions from that fact than what you are doing. I'm not saying you're a republican either. But, using health insurance reform as an example, many Dems seemed to want the same thing as the repugs did.

                My back is spineless. My back is yellow. I am the American non-voter. -The Simpsons, Episode 2, Season 3, "Mr. Lisa Goes to Washington"

                by Aspe4 on Wed Nov 10, 2010 at 10:03:14 AM PST

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          •  having said that (0+ / 0-)

            yes, Lieberman is an ass and he does do things just to smite Democrats.  As far as other Senators, maybe there is some of that, but I don't think too much.  If you're a conservative democrat, then you're a conservative democrat.

      •  Who else, though? (0+ / 0-)

        You don't think that you promoted some people who have proven to be oppositional to the goals?  

        "Can you get out of your jammies now, Daddy? It's almost time for school." ~My Daughter

        by otto on Wed Nov 10, 2010 at 09:16:11 AM PST

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