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View Diary: Yes, agreeing to the GOP tax cut plan would be caving (366 comments)

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  •  Let ALL tax cuts expire! (36+ / 0-)

    And yes even for the middle class. It's time we as a country faced the facts and payed for all this bullshit we've done to ourselves in the past 10 years. Wars don't pay for themselves.

    •  agreed (10+ / 0-)

      "The job of career politicians is to convince you that you have a perfectly free choice to hit yourself on the head with a brick or a baseball bat."

      by lisastar on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 12:46:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  problem (5+ / 0-)

      These cuts are the only major form of economic stimulus that we'll see in the next 2 years.  So im not sure that we can cut them for the middle class.

      Cutting for the top 1% doesnt really classify as stimulus so i agree there.  i think obama's off the reservation on that one.

      On DailyKos nothing is significant unless Obama doesn't do it.

      by glutz78 on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 12:48:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sherlyle, happymisanthropy

        At least allow the tax cut for >$1 million to expire.  There's no way to consider that money as an effective stimulus, and much of it will be invested outside the US anyway.

        "Die Stimme der Vernuft ist leise." (The voice of reason is soft)

        by ivorybill on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 12:53:57 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obama has to deal... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ivorybill

          ...with the legislation Congress sends to his desk.  If he gets a bill that is an across-the-board extension, his options are 'All' or 'Nothing'.

          The Republicans are going to force his hand.  They're not going to send him a bill that decouples the the middle class from the top 2%.  

          It's gonna be the first order of business of the new Congress, and that's the only advantage he has -- that it happens early and he and the Congressional Dems have time to frame the issue before the 2012 election.  He should veto it and put the ball right back in their court.  

          •  He'll sign it... (0+ / 0-)

            This is Obama we're talking about, not George W. Bush.  Much as I hated Bush, I have to admit now that he had some strong characteristics.  His goals were flawed, but his method of achieving them was not.  

            Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

            by Asak on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 08:53:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Tax cuts for middle class get spent (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Matt Z, Norm in Chicago, DrToast

        Tax cuts for wealthy get saved or invested (sometimes overseas).  Quite simply, the money multiplier is much higher for tax cuts for the middle class.  Why is that so hard for everyone to understand?

        •  Everyone may see that... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Asak, Brooke In Seattle

          ...but we'll never see them decoupled. Better to let the cuts all expire, and hang it around the Republicans necks.

          Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

          by JeffW on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 01:08:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Politically... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JeffW

            ...obama will get blamed either for not extending them all, for extending none, or extending them all.

            Politically, it doesn't really matter what he does.

            Economically, they had better be sure that extending the cuts only for middle class will actually have a dramatic beneficial effect- if not, they should just oppose them all- or extend them all.

            Obama and his team are taking the highest gamble politically by trying to split it down the middle.

            •  I won't blame him... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JeffW

              ...and there's plenty I already hold him accountable for.  He needs to show resolve.  He needs to let the Republicans know that compromise is a 2-way street.  It's the only thing he has.  

              •  agreed. (0+ / 0-)

                ..but his only power on this is to oppose them all- or say he will veto a bill that contains any extension except the one he has proposed.

                But- the white house probably does to also the cut in the estate tax and the capital gains tax.  They have already decided to do a negotiation- and so, they are going to lose politically on this no matter what.

                The only way to let them know that compromise is a two-way street is to issue a threat- and go through with it when you have to.  We will find out in the next year if Obama can do that or not.  It is a little late to demonstrate that abiliby on this legislation- they have already decided to negotiate.

                •  HCR is the only veto threat Obama will keep (0+ / 0-)

                  Other than that he's either a push over or his agenda matches the Republican one. Getting harder to know which is the truth.  Looks like the 2012 election will be between a radical Republican (Palin, Gingrich or whomever) and a moderate Republican (Obama).  Not really a great choice if you are a Progressive.

          •  "never see them decoupled" (0+ / 0-)

            You'd fit in well in the Obama administration.  Don't know 'til you put up the fight and use the bully pulpit.  Yeah, like that's gonna ahppen.

            •  My point is that the Republicans don't... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Asak

              ...want them decoupled. They want to see the upper 2% tax cuts continued by any means necessary, ripping a big chunk into the deficit. And no, I would most assuredly not fit in well with the Obama administration, as I would counsel the President to have the lame duck session focus on everything else, and let the tax cuts expire.

              Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

              by JeffW on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 02:27:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  If you address taxes (0+ / 0-)

                then you gotta try to decouple.

                But there is a good argument for your strategy of addressing other things.  But the HOR will pass a bill and it will anguish in the Senate and the Dems will be blamed for not extending tax cuts.

                I think better to have the debate and keep repeating the point that everyone is getting a tax cut on their first $250K, that it is the most targeted towards stimulus because it will actually be spent and that the ending the reduced taxes above $250K is a deficit reduction act.  Simple, clean argument.

                Unfortunately Dems lost this argument when they allowed this to be framed as a tax increase rather than an end to a period of reduced taxes.  We always lose the narrative.

      •  that is what they claim. (0+ / 0-)

        but is it true?  Is it really a stimulus?  Would it really have a negative effect?

        It seems that they could do other things that would have more beneficial value than an ongoing small cut in the income tax for the middle class.

        •  there are better things to stimulate the economy (0+ / 0-)

          but none seem politically possible anymore, right?

          or am i wrong?

          On DailyKos nothing is significant unless Obama doesn't do it.

          by glutz78 on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 01:16:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  well, this is the issue, isn't it?.. (0+ / 0-)

            But is this thing really a stimulus?  If so, they better just do a temporary extension of them all.

            The larger problem seems to be that we have a president who is reluctant to take his case for higher taxes for the wealthy (or for anyone for that matter) to the people- and now he has put it off so long, that there isn't enough time to do it now.

            Tax policy never was their thing- and so it seems we are stuck with the bush tax code at least for the next 4 years.

            This tax thing really is very related to the problem that Obama has in not actively promoting the positive role that government has in our lives- and how we all have a stake in funding it.  He is afraid to make that case to the american public- and until he does- or someone does- effectively, we are stuck with conservative governance and policies no matter which party is in control.

      •  Stimulus from tax cuts is too small to bother (0+ / 0-)

        And the inverse is true of tax increases.  Let taxes go back up.  Either way the economy is going to be in the shitter.  The difference is too small to even worry about.  

        Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

        by Asak on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 08:52:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  This is the better choice (7+ / 0-)

      than leaving cuts in place permanently. If there is to be sacrifice, let it be in my day, that my children should live in peace. (h/t Th. Paine)

      If you don't know history, you don't know anything. You're a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree. ~Michael Crichton, Timeline

      by Leslie H on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 12:53:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And when more families fall into foreclosure? (0+ / 0-)

      It's time to face facts.  The GOP teabaggers now control the House.  There isn't going to be a single piece of economically helpful legislation coming out of DC for the next 2 years at a minimum.

      If taxes go up, the rich are just going to sit on their money even more and refuse to act. They won't hire and will continue to outsource.

      The Dems had their chance to act on jobs, on fair trade, on taxes and blew it.  So if you raise taxes now and pull that money out of the economy at the same time unemployment benefits are ending and people are living paycheck to paycheck, then consumer spending will drop and jobs will vanish.

      So before you get all cavalier with other people's money, explain to me where the job creation comes from with a GOP House and higher taxes?

      •  No job creation would come... (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Asak, Brooke In Seattle, schnecke21

        ...from the middle-class tax cuts. We would have seen it now under the comprehensive cuts.

        Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

        by JeffW on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 01:07:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not new jobs, keeping the ones we have (0+ / 0-)

          Raise taxes and we lose jobs, because the money will be pulled out of the economy and the GOP won't spend it anywhere that will help.

          Higher taxes under the GOP will go to one place, a war with Iran.

          •  You can't expect those jobs to remain... (0+ / 0-)

            ...on the strength of tax cuts. It will only give the Republicans ammo to keep them coupled, and rip a huge hole in the deficit.

            Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

            by JeffW on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 01:45:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then fix jobs first (0+ / 0-)

              If you want to raise taxes, then you first have to show how you keep the same amount of money in the economy given that the teabaggers aren't interested in domestic spending.

              And truthfully, I'm not interested in the deficit right now.  It's all owed to China anyway, and we're already running a massive trade deficit.  You want to pay them back our debt on top of that?

              Fix our trade deficit, and the budget deficit will take care of itself.  Jobs first, then we pay off debt.

    •  I tend to agree with this. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      coffejoe

      if the democrats had wanted a new tax code as a priority, they would have handled this before the election.

      The real problem is that the white house does not just want the tax cuts he is talking about to be extended- they really want the cut in the estate tax and capital gains taxd to be extended too.  Because of this, they have already negoitiated away all of their power.

      At this point, they either need to let them all expire, or let congress do whatever they want.  Either way, they should stop spending time on this thing.

      When do they start formulating a public investment plan for growth in domestic manufacturing- and start imposing trade tariffs on china?  These are the big questions- and they are far from even beginning to address them.

      •  Let them all expire... (0+ / 0-)

        It's not that bad.  It's not even that unreasonable.  And the way to have leverage is to actually be unreasonable.  Let people know they have to deal with you, because if they don't, then fuck it, you'll let the whole house burn down around you.  Force them to deal with you or not at all.  

        And the sad truth is letting the tax cuts expire would barely effect the economy at all.  So it's not a big loss if they were to go away.  

        Obama should have the leverage on this, but whenever he should be in a position of strength, he just pisses it all away and goes with a "compromise" that gives up most of what was worthwhile in the first place.  

        Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!

        by Asak on Thu Nov 11, 2010 at 08:58:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  agreed. (0+ / 0-)

          The only way to show that you really care about something is to show that you can be completely unreasonable about getting it done.

          I am beginning to think he doesn't really care about anything- at least not enough to exert his power to actually force it to happen.

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