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View Diary: Speaking of pardons (updated) (300 comments)

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  •  President Obama made it very clear (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Situational Lefty

    ....that not only does he support state-sanctioned murder -- he supports murder in non-capital crimes.

    Only Russia, Pakistan, China, and Iran beats the United States for the number of citizens they murder.

    The rest of the Developed world considers our slaughter utterly depraved.

    •  i support the death penatly for people (0+ / 0-)

      who torture or mutilate or rape or kill.  

      oh, and especially for those who stone women in the streets like some fundamentalist muslim immigrants in Scandinavia do.  

      A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

      by bluefaction on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 07:43:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well, you have a friend in President Obama (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Situational Lefty
        •  yep (0+ / 0-)

          someone who isn't afraid to defend innocent people from animals.

          i wish nobody ever had to die, but you look someone who's loved one was tortured or mutilated or raped or killed and tell them that they are utterly depraved for wanted the animal responsible put down.

          A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

          by bluefaction on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 07:55:59 PM PST

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          •  Only savage nations (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IM, Situational Lefty

            ...murder citizens as a punishment.

            However, that certainly does explain why the US has more criminals and murderers than any other developed nation in the world.

            State sanctioned murder cheapens human life and sends a depraved message that degrades the humanity of the citizens.

            Not somewhere one would want to live or create a family, that's for sure.

            •  which developed nations don't kill people? (0+ / 0-)

              could you please tell me so i will know which nations are savages and which are places where one would want to live or create a family?

              A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

              by bluefaction on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 08:23:19 PM PST

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            •  killing those people is defense (0+ / 0-)

              if i caught someone raping or torturing or killing anyone in my family i would kill them.  i don't understand how you could just put them in time out for it.  

              A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

              by bluefaction on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 08:32:46 PM PST

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              •  I totally understand (0+ / 0-)

                That's why the United States will be under terrorist attack for as long as you are alive.

                The Arabs families whose loved ones we murdered feel exactly the same way that you do. They will get their revenge on US soil or die trying.

                •  what about all the attacks in europe? (0+ / 0-)

                  A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

                  by bluefaction on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 08:51:49 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not living in a European (0+ / 0-)

                    ...nation that is part of the murdering coalition.

                    Those that are not murdering Arabs seem to be doing okay -- as is only logical.

                    I am a post-national sovereign individual, so I really have very little to do with all this primitive slaughter in the name of foreign policy.

                    In retrospect, I see that it was a mistake to take this "intellectual" journey with you. In your era and place on this planet, I can certainly see your point.

                    •  well, you are lucky to live somewhere peaceful (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Pluto

                      in this country of 310 million people many of which live in a range of poverty from homeless to losing their house there is a lot of danger from violent people who, ironically enough, also see themselves as separate from our society but, unlike you, who see that as an excuse to hurt anyone in our society that they want.  live in a neighborhood with gun fire going off in the night every night.  i have.  someone was getting shot.  someone was getting killed.  just down the street.  i would love to live in a world without killing for any reason, but that is kind of like living in a family that doesn't fight.  everyone has to agree not to fight for that to work.  if tens of millions of people around you don't agree to respect your safety then you have to accept that you don't live in a perfectly civilized society and that means that yeah, some of the rules of the jungle still apply.  rules that every other form of life on this planet lives by.  not the ideal of course, but ideal doesn't really matter when you are holding your brother's gunshot wound closed waiting for the police to show up in a few hours.

                      A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

                      by bluefaction on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 09:18:11 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  If they're in prison... (0+ / 0-)

                ...at which point one is elligable for a pardon, you couldn't get your hands on them.

                The whole point in you not being one of the jurors in a criminal case is so that you cannot exact vengeance, which is what you describe yourself as being willing to do.  It's understandable, in terms of psychology, to have a desire for vengeance, but it's not ok in terms of legality.

          •  In what way... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IM, Situational Lefty

            ...does executing someone "defend innocent people"?  Life in prison will accomplish that goal.

            •  punishment deters crime (0+ / 0-)

              not always, but when it comes to murder and torture and rape and mutilation i think that being able to prevent some of these from happening is worthwhile.

              there was a guy who kidnapped a little boy when i was younger.  he make the kid cut his own penis off with a swiss army knife blade.  a little swiss army knife.  he made him sit down and saw off his penis with a dull little blade.

              you don't send a guy like that to time out for the rest of his life.  he's a sick animal.  if your dog ate your kids penis you would put it down.  same with a man who tortures a kid by forcing him to mutilate himself.

              A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

              by bluefaction on Wed Nov 24, 2010 at 10:33:29 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not understanding (0+ / 0-)

                Why is life in prison (without parole) not a sufficient deterrent for violent criminals?

                What about the falsely imprisoned?  Life in prison gives them a chance for new evidence to free them, the death penalty, not so much from what I've heard:

                http://socialistworker.org/...

                CLAUDE JONES was executed in 2000 in the state of Texas--just one of 152 men and women put to death during George W. Bush's reign as governor.

                Ten years later, the case is making headlines. The forensics evidence used to convict Jones of capital murder was submitted for DNA. The result: the DNA doesn't match.

                A single hair found at the crime scene, supposedly proven to belong to Jones, was the key piece of evidence in his conviction. The hair was recently tested at the request of the Texas Observer and the New York-based Innocence Project--and was found to match the victim of the crime.

                "The DNA results prove that testimony about the hair sample on which this entire case rests was just wrong," said Barry Scheck, co-founder of the Innocence Project, in a statement. "Unreliable forensic science and a completely inadequate post-conviction review process cost Claude Jones his life."

                •  prison doesn't defere people (0+ / 0-)

                  when they are at the point that they have lost connection with any civilized part of their mind and they are going to commit an act such as rape or torture.  death still gets through, because death is something feared at the most primitive part of our minds.  death is final.  there is no escape.  that is something to fear.

                  will it work everytime?  clearly not.  but prison sure isn't stopping people from committing horrific crimes in any of the countries that they happen in.  which is all of them.

                  now, when i say i support the death penalty for these crimes i say it with an assumption that there is absolute proof.  i know that there are people who have been put to death wrongly.  that is why i don't support the death penalty unless there is absolute proof.  

                  A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

                  by bluefaction on Thu Nov 25, 2010 at 10:01:30 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What I don't get is: (0+ / 0-)

                    but prison sure isn't stopping people from committing horrific crimes in any of the countries that they happen in.  which is all of them.

                    We have states in the US with the death penalty, and yet in those states with the death penalty, murder still occurs and thus has not been deterred.

                    when they are at the point that they have lost connection with any civilized part of their mind and they are going to commit an act such as rape or torture.  death still gets through, because death is something feared at the most primitive part of our minds.  death is final.  there is no escape.  that is something to fear.

                    I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that people committing these crimes assume that they won't be caught.  If they're under the assumption that they won't be caught and punished, how are they going to be deterred by a punishment that they assume they'll never be subjected to?

                    Your theory only works because you're thinking rationally.  People who rape, torture, and murder, by definition, are not thinking rationally.

                    •  maybe you are right. i don't know. (0+ / 0-)

                      but when a cop points a gun at a person who's about to kill someone they usually stop trying to kill them and surrender to the cops to avoid death.  

                      A man abstemious, rigidly upright, inflexibly honest, ferociously chaste. A man with every virtue, except humility and human kindness. - Ellis Peters

                      by bluefaction on Thu Nov 25, 2010 at 06:29:00 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

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