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View Diary: DREAM Act vs. Economic Recovery. Choose wisely (82 comments)

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    •  How do you kow that they are not (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sberel, marykk, We Won, Mostel26

      included in the unemployment statistics. Does the survey that is used to determine the various unemployment rates ask if the person is a citizen?

      You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia".

      by yellowdog on Fri Nov 26, 2010 at 05:14:25 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, to apply for (1+ / 0-)
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        Lujane

        Unemployment, you had to have worked under a leagal SS and the employer had to have recorded it with the labor department. These are the numbers the Labor Departments use to calculate unemployment figures.

        •  IT Pro - two different metrics (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sberel, happy camper, Lujane

          You are right that to apply for unemployment you have to have been a W2 employee, although some undocumented workers have fake SocSec numbers and W2 income. The DoL does publish statistics regarding the number of people applying for benefits for the fist time and the total number receiving unemployment benefits. However, that data has absolutely nothing to do with the unemployment rate, also issued by the DoL. The unemployment statistics have always been based on a telephone survey and legal status is not one of the questions asked. It does not make any difference if household members are receiving unemployment benefits or not. If you do not have a job, and are actively looking for work, you are counted as unemployed. It does not matter if that unemployed household member is receiving unemployment assistance, or not.

          "let's talk about that"

          by VClib on Fri Nov 26, 2010 at 07:16:58 AM PST

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        •  WRONG!!! (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sberel, happy camper

          Lot's of people assume this, but the unemployment statistics are based on phone surveys.

          The process is described in Statistical Abstract of the United States. This is an annual that everyone who is interested infacts should read. I'm sure that your local library has a copy.

          Corporations are people; money is speech.
          1984 - George Orwell

          by Frank Palmer on Fri Nov 26, 2010 at 10:11:08 AM PST

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          •  THe total number of people seeking (0+ / 0-)

            unemployment benefits is not a survey. These are hard numbers. No survey is necessary.

            In any case, I don't understand how anyone can argue that adding more legal workers without adding jobs will do anything but increase unemployment.

            •  So, there are treal numbers somewhere. (0+ / 0-)

              THe total number of people seeking unemployment benefits is not a survey. These are hard numbers. No survey is necessary.

              Perfectly true. And this has a realationship to the unemployment numbers only in your delusivwe imiagination.

              The unemployment numbers, now close to 10%, are gathered in a phone survey.

              I gave a refereence. Someday, read it.

              Corporations are people; money is speech.
              1984 - George Orwell

              by Frank Palmer on Sat Nov 27, 2010 at 09:55:00 AM PST

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              •  My contention is that unemployent is (0+ / 0-)

                too high right now and this means thare more available workers than jobs.  Are you saying this is not true?

                There are statistics from surveys that say this. There is also hard data that says this.  I am sure the number of people collecting unemployment is directly related to the unemployment rate.  Are you saying the survey statistics contradict the hard data?  I doubt it.

                •  The survey statistics ARE the hard data. (0+ / 0-)

                  Everything else is your fevid imagination.

                  Corporations are people; money is speech.
                  1984 - George Orwell

                  by Frank Palmer on Mon Nov 29, 2010 at 09:30:11 AM PST

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                •  Your NEW contention. (0+ / 0-)

                  The contention I was answering was this delusion on your part:

                  These are the numbers the Labor Departments use to calculate unemployment figures.

                  Referring to the people applying for unemployment benefits.

                  This is absolutely untrue. It is also a common fallacy.
                  I try to correct it because people who don't read the references but make things up keep repeating it.
                  Soomebody might be naive enough to believe you.

                  So I corrected your blunder. So you make up something else to pretend that was what you said. But the history is up there in the thread.

                  Corporations are people; money is speech.
                  1984 - George Orwell

                  by Frank Palmer on Mon Nov 29, 2010 at 09:38:23 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  yellowdog - this is a key issue (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sberel, Lujane

        My understanding, and I am not an expert, is that when the DoL conducts its employment survey each month (which is conducted by phone) that legal status is not a question that is asked. The survey asks if there are adults in the home who do not have a job and are actively looking for work. That data drives the primary unemployment number U3. There are other questions also asked that provide the data for other metrics like U6 which includes U3 plus the number of people who are part-time but looking for full time and the number who are out of work (and would work) but are not actively looking. It would be good if we could find someone who knows for sure about legal status, but I don't think that is part of the survey. If this is true then unemployed undocumented workers are already baked into the current statistics.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Fri Nov 26, 2010 at 07:24:57 AM PST

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        •  Undocumented workers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lujane

          often have fake SS cards. The guy working as a gardener for cash might not, but the worker in a chicken packing plant probably does, because his employer has to cut him a paycheck and at least make it look somewhat legit, and pay SS taxes or face a visit from the IRS.

          Fraud by employers is what enables most of the hiring of undocumented workers, and the accompanying lowering of wages in affected industries.

          "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

          by happy camper on Fri Nov 26, 2010 at 07:31:19 AM PST

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    •  Uh ... (9+ / 0-)

      If you put this down to an electoral strategy problem, as you did here:

      "Swapping the constituent of suffering U.S. citizens, who CAN vote, for a the benefit of a constituent who cannot vote, seems like an insane political move to me."

      You might like to remember that the Latino community saved us in this last election. Harry Reid is where he is today because of the Latino community. It is unlikely that we can deliver on Comprehensive Immigration Reform (though I wish our party would try), and this is the least we could do for them.

      We aren't going to win 2012 or get any other part of the progressive agenda done without the Latino community. If DREAM will indeed hurt the unemployed, then let us figure out other ways to compensate for it.

    •  Someday, you should read the act. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      sberel, happy camper

      It's not about allowing more students in, much less allowing more to work.

      It's about kids who have been in this country for years going to school.

      Corporations are people; money is speech.
      1984 - George Orwell

      by Frank Palmer on Fri Nov 26, 2010 at 10:13:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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